Captain's Quarters Comments - Latest Comments in Did Romney Score With The Speech?

Re: Did Romney Score With The Speech?

James — Sun, 09 Dec 2007 08:30:23 -0000

In the rare instances that I consider the historic racism of the Mormon church to have bearing on the issues, I look to McConkie's Mormon Doctrine and such passages as 2 Ne. 5:20-25. Whether or not individual Mormons know or believe these teachings of their church is another matter. The only religious question we should ask of any of these missionaries running for the Republican nomination is whether he or she can sit down with a Muslim and negotiate in good faith.

We have a serious and significant foreign policy problem as a consequence of the Bush Doctrine. Christian missionary ideology (whatever the theology) exacerbates this problem. Neither Huckabee nor Romney show any evidence that they will orchestrate a foreign policy that will mitigate the damage done by Bush; rather either one would magnify it with further errors. The "symphony of faith" that Romney conceives is an integral component of this problem: the failure to see beyond the illusions of American exceptionalism.

Re: Did Romney Score With The Speech?

David — Sun, 09 Dec 2007 01:47:41 -0000

For those who are worried that the Mormon Church will try to run the country from Salt Lake City, or somehow control Washington, they need not worry. That's not their goal. What the LDS leaders would love to see is Mitt Romney get elected and then govern the US as a first class president garnering respect from all quarters (at least most quarters—including the Captain’s). Those that are worried about Mormon Church control should worry more about how well Romney will use his exceptional skill, brainpower, communication and leadership ability (as clearly demonstrated Thursday) as president in the faithful the performance of his office.

Case in opposite point, Harry Reid. Ninety-eight percent of Mormons wish he had grown up to be a truck driver (no disrespect intended to good truck drivers) rather than a politician because he's such an embarrassment. Virtually all Mormons cringe when they hear his name. We are looking for exactly the opposite out of Romney.

Re: Did Romney Score With The Speech?

tommo — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 10:59:17 -0000

Romney's genuine warmth on the dais? He's as warm as a Ken doll.

Why can right-wingers be so wrong about EVERYTHING?

Re: Did Romney Score With The Speech?

harleycon5 — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 09:23:57 -0000

Some points on MItt Romney:

The marks of religion are more than just what church you go to, or if you walk around with a Bible, or if you say the right things to the right people. Being truly religious shows it's signs in your own family, and I challenge you to look closely at Romney's.

I saw a photo of a young Mitt Romney while he was doing as his religion demands, helping others overseas, where he was seen next to a message he had drawn in the sand, "I love you, Anne". He still loves the same woman today, having seen her through her own personal battle with Multiple Sclerosis. Love is at the heart of religion, or at least it is supposed to be.

Isn't a man's own personal character reflective of his religion? I think so.

On his own conservatism: I was watching Mitt on a Glen Beck's show last night, and he was speaking of how America can do whatever is needed, for it is the goal of our nation and the heart of the people that drive the greatness of our country. Ronald Reagan couldn't have put it better. Beck at one point said Mitt's words "set his heart aflutter" (I presume he doesn't hear true conservatism being espoused often;)

Things he touched on:

Mitt does not agree with any plan for a "North American organization" ala the European union. American sovereignty is tantamount. Can it be said that Rudy Guliani or Mike Huckabee feel the same way?

On energy independence: Mitt says American can be energy independent if we only bring together sensible environmentalism and conservative fiscal responsibility. My take was that he did not want to damage our economy for the sake of environmental illusion. He spoke frankly that we needed to focus on Nuclear energy just as France does, something that is both brave but also logical.

Something tells me that Romney is the real deal, I can't define how exactly. There is something about the ease in which he speaks of conservative ideals that makes me think he is speaking from the heart, not just telling us what a poll is telling him to say.

Right now, I am in the Romney ranks.

Re: Did Romney Score With The Speech?

BurfordHolly — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 08:16:25 -0000

Adams was basically playing to the 35% who wanted to return to having a king by asserting that the Executive is all powerful, and it led to the electoral massacre of the Federalist party. Do I need to draw you a picture?

Re: Did Romney Score With The Speech?

BurfordHolly — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 08:12:39 -0000

I think the best summary of Willards speech is "I'm one of you, and it's us against them."

Regards your comment:

>" If you've got a problem with Christianity...."

Wow, just wow. Maybe you'd like to talk to my dad. He's near 80. I'll buy you a plane ticket. He'll talk for hours to Mormon missionaries and Jehova 's Witnesses, but if you say " If you've got a problem with Christianity........" he's pound you into a grease spot. Actually, Mom (who's been on the boards of a couple churches) would probably want a shot you also. Wow.

But what I hear in Romey's speech, is this: "I support religious freedom,but I reserve the right to decide whether or not other peoples religions are valid or good enough." . and probably also "If you question my politics, you aren't a Christian." Talk about just not getting it.

Regards the Founders beliefs of the role of religion in freedom, Jefferson wrote the most (although Thomas Paine was a lot more explicit). As Jefferson said, Christianity is the "purest religion," but it is always prostituted and corrupted when mingle with politics.

In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is easier to acquire wealth and power by this combination than by deserving them, and to effect this, they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer for their purposes (Jefferson)

History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose. (Jefferson)

"this loathsome combination of church and state" that for so many centuries reduced human beings to "dupes and drudges."

But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer [Jesus] of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State. (Jefferson)

he Book of Revelation, in a letter to Alexander Smyth of 17 January 1825: it is "merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy, nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams."(Jefferson)

Question with boldness even the existence of a god because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear...... If it ends in a belief that there is no god, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in it's [sic] exercise, and the love of others which it will procure you. (Jefferson)

Re: Did Romney Score With The Speech?

Sentry — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 07:29:59 -0000

That's right. The Founding Fathers were all slave-owning idiots and had nothing of value to contribute. We, today, are all so much more intelligent and wise. Might as well scrap everything they said.

Re: Did Romney Score With The Speech?

Sentry — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 07:24:45 -0000

Oh, Lord. "Ruling class"? If you think I'm going to debate the Bible with you, you're about to be disappointed. That's not germane to the discussion. The Founders, you admit, believed in God. They believed God gave us certain rights that no one can take away from us. If you've got a problem with Christianity, there are countless others who've defended it as well as or better than I could. If they failed to persuade you, I'm not going to.

Re: Did Romney Score With The Speech?

Christoph — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 06:21:46 -0000

There's also how the man treats a dog.

Re: Did Romney Score With The Speech?

newton — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 00:53:50 -0000

Nice speech, Mitt. Not bad at all. Your points should be obvious to all.

Religion? Mormonism vs. Whateverelse-ism? I'll deal with it when those nineteen-year-old "elders" knock on my door, OK? That's where such discussion belongs, not in the Republican Presidential Primaries.

Now, let's discuss your flip-flopping. Or the stuff that happened in MA during your term, such as gay marriage... Hello?

Re: Did Romney Score With The Speech?

unclesmrgol — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 00:35:57 -0000

Read the speech. It was good -- and the best part of it was when Romney declared that he wasn't going to be one of those who dropped his religious tenets as he grasped for high office.

Unfortunately, he's still pro-abortion (in this, he is consistant with current Mormon teaching). That's too big a religious difference for me to overcome.

Re: Did Romney Score With The Speech?

Steve-o — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 23:59:16 -0000

I believe in God, and I have a rich spiritual life. I didn't listen to the speech and have no intention of reading it. If Romney gets the nomination he will get my vote.

Everybody. Shut. Up. About. Religion.

Re: Did Romney Score With The Speech?

MikeA — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 22:37:12 -0000

Well, I was impressed. I am an Evangelical life long Republican, and I spent the last week researching Romney and the idea of a Mormon as President. And I was psyched up to reject Romney outright. But I found his speech to be something that I might have said myself, if I had his grace and charm.

To Christopher, who ranted so much about the speech insulting non-believers, may I just say “NUTS”. If Romney had made any effort to make a statement that said he accepted the views of atheists, he might have gained their few votes but would almost certainly have lost millions of others like mine. I would find that type of pandering to people who I and weary of hearing whine about being offended by any mention of God, to be very offensive myself. The numbers are on our side, so Romney made the smart choice.

I’m not sure I’ll vote for him yet, but I can now say I will not vote against his faith.

Re: Did Romney Score With The Speech?

BurfordHolly — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 21:22:22 -0000

Nobody believed it before 1776. If the Bible had said anything about voting,for instance, or free speech, or free press, or freedom of assembly, or the right to petition for redress, these ideas would have been more common. Oh, and freedom of religion - not in the Bible either. There's stuff about killing any family member that leaves the church and anyone practicing fortune telling, but nothing about freedom of religion. The Founders believed in God, but otherwise they were more like Jefferson who took a straight razor to passages of the Bible that he thought had been added for the convenience of the ruling class.

Re: Did Romney Score With The Speech?

Sentry — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 21:06:18 -0000

Where was democracy before 1776? Was there any country in the world that believed that men were created with these rights, and based their whole system of governance upon it? Our founders were wise enough to recognize that truth.

Re: Did Romney Score With The Speech?

Nate — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 21:03:16 -0000

At this point I dont care what anyone thinks. As for myself, I liked it. Glad I was born in the United States.

Re: Did Romney Score With The Speech?

Gull — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 20:40:16 -0000

The speech Mitt Romney delivered today will (and should) go down in history as one of the most succinct overviews of the American SPIRIT written in decades. If not ever written.

Be ye political operatives for Hillary, far-right tent revivalists or Rudy apologists who want to confound Mitt's message by taking phrases out of context ---- admit it --- no candidate for POTUS in recent history could have delivered this speech with the authority, clarity or sincerity which Mitt demonstrated. 'Tis the season for political posturing, but today, MItt Romney delivered the REASON for his willingness to take the criticism and attacks that will come his way.

Godspeed, Mitt Romney.

And thanks for acknowledging that agnostics and atheists are also capable of experiencing and sharing "faith" in the American spirit.

Re: Did Romney Score With The Speech?

BurfordHolly — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 20:35:00 -0000

There was a really funny piece on theonion.com about the religion of secular humanism and how the opening day of baseball season was now a federal holiday. Maybe Willard saw it and didn't know it was satire.

But his speech had an unfortunate us-against-them tone, and it reminded me of another great piece of satire - Sheriff Bart's speech to the towns people about how they all had to live together including the (Chinese) and the (Blacks), but NOT the Irish.

Re: Did Romney Score With The Speech?

Lethologica — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 20:03:51 -0000

Nah, those are Atheists. atheists (little a) aren't that nuts. At the same time, atheists and theists both take a leap of faith in deciding whether or not to believe there is a God, and both sides are defensive about it. Agnostics are the ones who can claim not to have made any leaps of faith (not that that makes them better or worse for it).

Re: Did Romney Score With The Speech?

Lethologica — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 20:00:23 -0000

I guess I, with the view that marriage should be between any number of men and any number of women, or at least handled privately and not by the government, completely miss the point of your 34 wives schtick. It's kind of annoying that he only has 1 on register, tho.

Re: Did Romney Score With The Speech?

KarenT — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 19:59:41 -0000

Is he against allowing people to organize as secularists, or against secularism becoming the official, "established" religion of the United States?

Re: Did Romney Score With The Speech?

BurfordHolly — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 19:57:39 -0000

>John Adams' words: 'We have no government armed with power capable
>of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion...
>Our constitution was made for a moral and religious people.'

I have a hard time getting past John Adam and his "Alien and Sedition Acts" that he used to imprison newspaper editors. He was quite the power-mad little git,and his policies led to the extinction of the Federalist party. Food for thought.

Re: Did Romney Score With The Speech?

keemo — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 19:49:28 -0000

I was moved by Mr. Romney's speech today; especially these portions:

"There are some who may feel that religion is not a matter to be
seriously considered in the context of the weighty threats that face us.
If so, they are at odds with the nation's founders, for they, when our
nation faced its greatest peril, sought the blessings of the Creator.
And further, they discovered the essential connection between the
survival of a free land and the protection of religious freedom. In
John Adams' words: 'We have no government armed with power capable of
contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our
constitution was made for a moral and religious people.'

"As a young man, Lincoln described what he called America's 'political
religion' - the commitment to defend the rule of law and the
Constitution. When I place my hand on the Bible and take the oath of
office, that oath becomes my highest promise to God. If I am fortunate
to become your president, I will serve no one religion, no one group, no
one cause, and no one interest. A President must serve only the common
cause of the people of the United States.
"There are some for whom these commitments are not enough. They would prefer it if I would simply distance myself from my religion, say that
it is more a tradition than my personal conviction, or disavow one or
another of its precepts. That I will not do. I believe in my Mormon
faith and I endeavor to live by it. My faith is the faith of my fathers
- I will be true to them and to my beliefs.

This man has integrity, and will not alter our course based on "which way the polls are shifting" on any given day. I'm so sick of politicians that talk out of both sides of their mouths; politicians that tell us what they think we want to hear, but when it comes to action, they let us down time after time.

"Americans acknowledge that liberty is a gift of God, not an indulgence
of government. No people in the history of the world have sacrificed as
much for liberty. The lives of hundreds of thousands of America's sons
and daughters were laid down during the last century to preserve
freedom, for us and for freedom loving people throughout the world.
America took nothing from that Century's terrible wars - no land from
Germany or Japan or Korea; no treasure; no oath of fealty. America's
resolve in the defense of liberty has been tested time and again. It
has not been found wanting, nor must it ever be. America must never
falter in holding high the banner of freedom.

"These American values, this great moral heritage, is shared and lived
in my religion as it is in yours. I was taught in my home to honor God
and love my neighbor. I saw my father march with Martin Luther King. I
saw my parents provide compassionate care to others, in personal ways to
people nearby, and in just as consequential ways in leading national
volunteer movements. I am moved by the Lord's words: 'For I was an
hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I
was a stranger, and ye took me in: naked, and ye clothed me...'

Re: Did Romney Score With The Speech?

Rovin — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 19:43:34 -0000

Excellent synopsis Sentry,

I would add that only those who have a preconcieved bias against Romney will continue "nitpicking" and take portions of his speech out of context to fit their arguments.

Re: Did Romney Score With The Speech?

BurfordHolly — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 19:40:19 -0000

"............That Mitt Romney took that on was an important point, and not many other politicians have the guts to say it. His other line, "Americans acknowledge that liberty is a gift of God, not an indulgence of government" is brilliant. That's the foundation of our country. The Constitution or the Bill of Rights didn't give us those rights. God did. No man can take away a gift of God. We forget that at our peril. As soon as we start looking at the government as the guarantor of those rights, we give government the power to take them away. That's why liberalism is so dangerous in this regard......"

So where was God before 1776?