Crashing a plane is only an issue if there is evidence that the pilot was at fault.
I've heard the "meme" that being a pilot or a member of the service doesn't make one a hero a lot over the past few days, and it is true, but John McCain is not a hero because he served. He is a hero because of what he did while a POW.
- 10/26/67 shot down while flying an A4 Skyhawk on a 20-plane mission to Hanoi by an SA2 missile while pulling up after dropping his bombs. - broke both arms and one leg and landed in Truc Bach Lake in Hanoi where he was pulled from the water by angry locals and beaten, shoulder crushed and bayoneted in the foot and abdomen. - wasn't given medical treatment until 2 days later when they found out he was son of a navy admiral. - 12/67 after hospitalization, transferred to POW camp in Hanoi and put in a cell with Bud Day who won medal of honor. Bud and other prisoner nursed McCain to keep him from dying. - 3/68 McCain put in solitary confinement where he would remain for two years. - 7/68 McCain's father made CINCPAC and McCain offered a chance to be released. McCain refused on grounds that military CoC requires first prisoners captured to be first released. - 8/68 Vietnamese began torture regimen on McCain. After four days of brutality and a failed suicide attempt, McCain broke and signed a confession saying that he was a "black criminal" and an "air pirate". McCain retained sufficient state of mind to use quirky language and syntax to signal that the confession was coersed. - 8/68 after refusing to sign a second confession, torture began anew although it was less intense. - when forced to reveal names of his squadron member, gave names of Packers offensive line. - refused to meet with visiting anti-war groups. - 12/69 McCain transferred to Hanoi Hilton. - 3/15/73 McCain released as a result of Paris Peace Accords.
So essentially, John McCain gave up five years of his life to a hellhole that you and I would be hard-put to imagine on the principle that he would not accept a gesture of grace ahead of his fellow prisoners. McCain did not have any reason to believe that he would survive his imprisonment or ever be released. You could argue that he was just following the rules, and he was, but he would not have been stood against the wall by the Navy if he'd accepted the offer.
I didn't vote for McCain, and I'm not sure I can vote for him in November if he wins the nomination, but he will always be welcome at my table if he's hungry.
MrLynn
· 1 year ago
Great post, Immolate. Helps to keep things in perspective.
"I didn't vote for McCain, and I'm not sure I can vote for him in November if he wins the nomination, but he will always be welcome at my table if he's hungry."
/Mr Lynn
docjim505
· 1 year ago
Ditto.
SwabJockey05
· 1 year ago
Some of the best men I've know have crashed planes...some of the worst have too. Two of my good friends are in a watery grave…probably still strapped in their planes.
Captain's right. Irrelevant to the candidate. Funny how the usual lefty trolls come out of the woodwork to "defend" McCain. I'm old enough to remember that these are the same “fellow travelers” who disparaged Bush Sr.
The lefties who compare Jon Kary's to McCain have no idea how foolish they seem to those of us who have been involved in Combat Operations. Kary and his minions trumpeted the “fact” that he was a war hero. McCain, a real war hero, doesn’t NEED TO. I’ve met more than a few bona fide, war heroes…none of them ever trumpet their “war hero status”. Judging from the fact that the lefty cowards keep drooling over Kary’s war hero claim, their intended audience must be impressed by it. Real men, those....
As is the case for every human endeavor, not all “service” is equal. Even when the service is conducted in an HONORABLE manner. Kary’s dishonorable behavior after his Navy service speaks for itself.
SwabJockey05
· 1 year ago
Should have mentioned this disclaimer: This swabbie crashed a tax-payer funded plane as well. Hope my shipmates don't hold it against me since the the cost was less than 10 Million...honest ;>
You guys REALLY believe the "polls" that say McCain can beat Hildabeast or the Dope? Why do you think the lefties and the MSM want McCain to be the Repub candidate? So a Repub gets in the WH? You must be "Three Sheets to the Wind"...stop bogarting the Grog, leave a little of that for your shipmates...we're gonna need it.
docjim505
· 1 year ago
SwabJockey: The lefties who compare Jon Kary's to McCain have no idea how foolish they seem to those of us who have been involved in Combat Operations. Kary and his minions trumpeted the “fact” that he was a war hero. McCain, a real war hero, doesn’t NEED TO. I’ve met more than a few bona fide, war heroes…none of them ever trumpet their “war hero status”.
This is something that always bothered my about Jean-Francoise Kerry. As you say, must men who have been there and done that don't talk much about it, either because the memories are painful and / or because they knew other men who were at least as brave as they were even though they might not have been awarded any medals. Kerry's shameless boasting about his war record - some of which he fabricated - was a bit hard to swallow.
You're right: real heroes don't need to go around telling people how heroic they are.
BillW
· 1 year ago
Archdean If you don't believe the wikipedia account of the Forrestal fire, how about an eyewitness. 40 years ago I was an 20 year old ordnanceman on the flight deck when McCain's plane caught fire. It happened just as described by Bennet. The only thing wrong was the 1000 lbs bombs were not WW2 vintage but from 1953 or the Korean War. BillW
Dave
· 1 year ago
No one is going to Swift Boat McCain. Everyone forgets that effort did not take off until Kerry's war protests -- especially the congressional testimony -- went public. Up until that point, it was just fodder for people who were going to vote for Bush no matter what.
Second, putting the two words "McCain" and "war" together in any sentence, no matter the verbs, adjectives and adverbs, helps the man. Everyone knows his POW story, and everyone knows he stuck his neck out on Iraq with more at risk than any other politician in the country. I know people don't like him for his other positions, but he deserves better treatment for that alone than Rush, Hannity and the other hatchet men out there have accorded him.
This is probably an effort to get the man to show more of the vituperative side he displayed last night -- anything to get under his skin and hope he blows a gasket during a presser. Because otherwise, this doesn't peel a single vote away from McCain.
essucht
· 1 year ago
No one is going to Swift Boat McCain. Everyone forgets that effort did not take off until Kerry's war protests -- especially the congressional testimony -- went public. Up until that point, it was just fodder for people who were going to vote for Bush no matter what.
What originally got Kerry's fellow Swift Boat Vets to let lose was when he started using them in his advertisements. Its one thing to insult a man you served with, quite another to then use him as a backdrop for your political aspirations.
I don't think I'll ever understand the Kerry dichotomy - on the one hand he said he was a war criminal like our other service men, and on the other hand that the primary reason he should be elected President because he was a war hero while Bush was a mere National Guard pilot.
But then I guess he presumed the media would provide cover for him all the way until the election, and of course, they almost did...
Brainster
· 1 year ago
Derb's supporting the candidate of half the kooks in America, Ron Paul. These freaks actually think that now the race is thinning out their guy is going to win (which is slightly undercut by Paul's 3% in Florida, the worse percentage he's gotten anywhere).
olddeadmeat
· 1 year ago
Kudos to you for standing up for fair treatment.
I have observed that throughout the time I have followed your blog, and your sense of fair play extends even to those who vehemently disagree with you.
As someone who sometimes does disagree with you, it is deeply appreciated.
essucht
· 1 year ago
John Derbyshire can be quite a piece of work.
McCain's own political record isn't enough to attack him with?
This is almost as bad as the Clintons' race baiting.
carol H
· 1 year ago
Derbyshire lost me as far as even listening to his opinions when he came out of closet as a Paultard. Any combo of Paul, Huckleberry or anyone giving credence to AGW will not get my vote. Dubya has taken much grief for being in TANG flying jets, just not in 'Nam. I figure he was in at least as much danger as Lurch in 'Nam with his self-inflicted purple hearts in 4 months of service or the Goreacle in rear echelons of Vietnam with his own bodyguards.
McCain may well have been heroic as a pilot and POW, but how does that really make him desirable or qualified at Prez? I am not at all impressed with the 100 members of the Senate. As far as heroic POWs are concerned, why wasn't Admiral James Stockdale elected President? He was Ross Perot's somewhat spaced out running mate. 300 million Americans and we can't do better than hillary, obamba or mccain????
essucht
· 1 year ago
I think that while military service shows a certain strength of character, it doesn't particularly show any real leadership experience until you get into the highest ranks.
Sure, Washington or Eisenhower's resume was a strong one to run for President, but I don't think someone like McCain should really get credit in *this* regard.
Oh, and as for the Paultards, considering his history and the state of the GOP race right now, one wonders how someone *credible* running on a conservative/libertarian platform might have done?
I doubt enough to win the nomination, but perhaps to change the dynamic...
ReaganEraGrunt
· 1 year ago
The highest rank is not necessarily a plus depending on the branch of service. Look at the Lieutenant Colonels and Colonels commanding combat arms battalions and brigades/regiments in the US Army and USMC and you will find some damn fine leaders. Hell, I've worked with no time in grade Staff Sergeants that have far more leadership skills that the current crop of oxygen thieves in congress.
That being said, anyone who will strap themselves into a mach 2 missile magnet deserves admiration for guts.
jvandahm
· 1 year ago
Why aren't we (and the candidates) focusing on attacking Dems, and attacking in the battlefield of ideas? I can't wait until this primary is over. My only condolence is most Dems I know feel the same way about their primary.
essucht
· 1 year ago
Well, perhaps, but either way the Democrats will get a complete leftwinger as their standard bearer.
So, were I one of them, I'd be a bit happier with my choices...
Rovin
· 1 year ago
There's a big difference from the lower half of the toilet and the water in the reservore.
ScottM
· 1 year ago
I like Derbyshire's stuff a lot (except for his second novel, which was dreadful), but sometimes I find myself wondering if he's quite sane.
michaelreynolds
· 1 year ago
Anyone who pushes this should be sentenced to be catapulted off the deck of an aircraft carrier.
Not necessarily in an aircraft.
Linh_My
· 1 year ago
How bout in an old Chebby? The Navy does test catapults from time to time with old cars.
Bill MItchell
· 1 year ago
I'm still trying to figure out what exactly makes John McCain a war hero.
When I think ware hero I think names like Eisenhower, Patton, Audie Murphy, Sgt York, Eddie Richenbacher. Men that risked their lives or acted with such brilliance and fearlessness that countless American lives were saved and wars were won.
So what exactly did McCain do that was heroic? He was a pilot. That's a job, not a heroic deed. He was shot down and became a POW. That's unfortunate, but not heroic. But when did John McCain ever rush a machine-gun nest and single-handedly save his platoon? Never.
If everyone is a hero, then no one is a hero. The job of soldiers is to fight wars. Simply doing their job is not heroic. You don't get an A+ in class just for showing up. Unless we are ready to call everyone who ever put on a uniform a "war hero", we cannot give John McCain that honor.
415woman
· 1 year ago
Yes, a fighter pilot is just doing a job, but one that requires bravery just to get into the cockpit. Is a police officer brave when he takes on an armed robber? Yes, just doing the job, but it takes guts to do it anyway, even if you are paid for it. How about a firefighter going into a burning building to save lives, even when they know it could collapse? Not brave? And the most heroic, being in a prison where you are routinely tortrured and humilated for years before finally being broken. Just a job? Well, maybe, but brave non the less. And I don't really like McCain.
AndyJ
· 1 year ago
I agree. Usually, a hero is someone who does something that if he hadn't done it nobody would have said anything or noticed.
McCain became a hero when he refused to take the early release because he was an admirals son.
He lost it when he didn't visit the guy who nursed him in the Hanoi Hilton. McCain has broken arms and broken legs... Somebody fed him and cleaned up his poop... You'd think McCain would have that guy standing at his side.... I do not recall ever reading that McCain looked him up for a "Thank You"... (My buddy who has a Vietnam CMH noted that tidbit as his reason for opposing McCain)...
PersonFromPorlock
· 1 year ago
For that matter, JFK got sunk and GHWB got shot down, too.
Anthony Ragan
· 1 year ago
The trouble with a smear like this, besides being a smear and a slander, is that it cuts the legs out from asking any of the legitimate and needful questions about McCain's character and temperament. (What I saw on display from him at the debate last night was not comforting.)
--Anthony (Los Angeles)
Del_Dolemonte
· 1 year ago
I found this info about McCain's plane accidents at (where else?) an anti-McCain site supposedly run by Vietnam vets. As you will see, one of the planes he "lost" crashed because of an engine flameout, and another plane he "lost" while sitting in his plane on an aircraft carrier, when a missile accidentally fired from another plane slammed into his.
"McCain III lost jet number one in 1958 when he plunged into Corpus Christi Bay while practicing landings. He was knocked unconscious by the impact coming to as the plane settled to the bottom.
McCain's second crash occurred while he was deployed in the Mediterranean. "Flying too low over the Iberian Peninsula," Timberg wrote, "he took out some power lines [reminiscent of the 1998 incident in which a Marine Corps jet sliced through the cables of a gondola at an Italian ski resort, killing 20] which led to a spate of newspaper stories in which he was predictably identified as the son of an admiral."
McCain's third crash three occurred when he was returning from flying a Navy trainer solo to Philadelphia for an Army-Navy football game.
Timberg reported that McCain radioed, "I've got a flameout" and went through standard relight procedures three times before ejecting at one thousand feet. McCain landed on a deserted beach moments before the plane slammed into a clump of trees.
McCain's fourth aircraft loss occurred July 29, 1967, soon after he was assigned to the USS Forrestal as an A-4 Skyhawk pilot. While seated in the cockpit of his aircraft waiting his turn for takeoff, an accidently fired rocket slammed into McCain's plane. He escaped from the burning aircraft, but the explosions that followed killed 134 sailors, destroyed at least 20 aircraft, and threatened to sink the ship.
McCain's fifth loss happened during his 23rd mission over North Vietnam on Oct. 26, 1967, when McCain's A-4 Skyhawk was shot down by a surface-to-air missile. McCain ejected from the plane breaking both arms and a leg in the process and subsequently parachuted into Truc Bach Lake near Hanoi. "
S. Wallace
· 1 year ago
Yeah, I saw Derbyshires' orginal post, and thought it not quite the thing.
A few comments: the Naval Aviation Safety Program, compared to what we have today, really hadn't even born yet when he was doing operational flying. Even today, teaching of CRM and Operational Risk Management skills in flight school has really only come about in the last ten years, and is still a little weak--when I went through Pensacola '97/'98, the only way to acquire knowledge of airmanship and "headwork" was by listening to sea stories and reading accident reports. Naval Aviation has come light-years since 1967.
Also, the squadron environment was really different back in the 50s/60s--prangs were expected, and you were then expected to go flying the next day--the best cure being the "hair of the dog that bit you". For a good feel for the times, go read the first chapter in Wolfe's The Right Stuff. It truly *can* bust at any seam.
Having said that--I'm kind of curious about the first three, just from a professional perspective.
But as far as the last aircraft loss--good lord knows how many times I did the "exploding cantaloupe" during Air Wing events, when all heck seemed to breaking loose, the radios were clobbered, and you just couldn't keep track of everything. I can only imagine how it was downtown in '67, before a lot of the SAM countertactics and warning gear had been developed. Air Wing strikesare hard enough in a two-man jet with modern gear--a cramped Rolling Thunder-era Skyhawk has got to be, for the pilot, a combination of information overload and an Situational Awareness black-hole.
I would surmise that the world's expert on what, if anything, could have been done differently in those last few moments is probably a certain John S. McCain, since, I believe, he probably spent at least some time reflecting upon it.
This entire thing is a non-issue.
Felicity
· 1 year ago
A quick stroll over to The Corner will reveal that Derb, having been soundly rebuked by emailers and colleagues alike (who recounted the proud history of the "goats" of the Academies and the valor displayed by McCain in the actions that led to the losses of at least two of those planes), has regretted his push of Steve Sailer's ill considered attack. The discussion has returned to issues far more germane to the contest, e.g. McCain on judicial appointments!
NCC
· 1 year ago
Yes, let's talk about judicial nominations.
Ted Olsen and Stephen Calebresi have endorsed McCain.
Obviously, each of them considers Alito too conservative, and deserves attack.
harleycon5
· 1 year ago
I think the slew of attacks started when McCain started unfairly attacking Romney via his smear about having an "Exact date of withdrawal". Of course, this kind of thing is reprehensible, but it does get you to understand why some people drop their gloves, as well.
capitano
· 1 year ago
I agree with Captain Ed, this stuff is silly. We need more Straight Talk in the campaign and it's pretty obvious it isn't going to come from McCain.
Besides, we still have hope -- no less a sage than Jack Cafferty on CNN just said that a couple more performances by McCain like last night's debate and we'll be looking at Romney as GOP nominee. The other CNN talking heads were stunned at the prospect.
Peyton
· 1 year ago
Anyone who keeps flying after crashes, flameouts and shoot-downs has balls, but not necessarily good sense. In the world we'll see the next few years, I'd say that the former is critical, the latter desired.
McCain has had an up-front and personal introduction to Murphy's Law. The last five years, his behavior has enraged me on several occasions. Yet, I prefer him to anyone the dems have to offer, and I'm looking for reasons to like him. This "smear" serves very well. The guy's got guts.
Del_Dolemonte
· 1 year ago
"Anyone who keeps flying after crashes, flameouts and shoot-downs has balls, but not necessarily good sense."
Not a pilot, eh?
Emily
· 1 year ago
The comment is from Steve Sailer who made it in an offhand way. He has next to zero interest in the presidential race saying he didn't even know what Mitt Romney's voice sounded like. Sailer is obsessed with I.Q. and was the one who figured out, and made the news four years ago, that George W. Bush was more than likely smarter by a few points than John Kerry; both have I.Q.'s in the 115-125 range.
He has written much about I.Q. and presidents, and its role in wisdom. He doesn't believe it's the only thing that matters, but that it is very important.
Tom_Shipley
· 1 year ago
"I agree with Captain Ed, this stuff is silly."
I don't recall many people thinking this stuff was silly when it was Kerry's service being attacked.
Del_Dolemonte
· 1 year ago
Well, maybe you should give some money to the anti-McCain Viet Vets link I cited above.
As for Kerry, he was "attacked" by a group of military people who actually served with him in 'Nam. Are the Vietnam Vets against McCain people ex-military who actually served with him?
T-Bone
· 1 year ago
Left unattended, Derbyshire's mustache turns into a cookie-duster.
Rovin
· 1 year ago
I've got a pack of Romney lies and distortions. Maybe I'll just release one a day on my site and tell everyone this is bogus crap.
eilandesq
· 1 year ago
It would be particularly funny if this meme turned out to be from one of the BDS crowd in a blind panic over the polls showing McCain ascendant. A couple of fun lists (or parts of them, anyway):
Pilots who have been involved in multiple plane crashes:. . .John McCain, Chuck Yeager, . . .
Pilots who never were involved in a plane crash:. . . .George W. Bush, . . .
It'd be fun to show this to a group of the usual suspects and watching their heads explode from the cognitive dissonance.*
*--in case it isn't obvious, I'm not insulting GWB--I'm pointing out that Chuck freaking Yeager has been involved in multiple plane crashes: it obviously isn't inconsistent with being a great pilot, and having no plane crashes on one's record doesn't make one a legendary pilot.
Del_Dolemonte
· 1 year ago
Hey, if you're a pilot you accept the crashes. They build character, unless you get creamed in "the big one".
Bush's Dad Pappy's plane crashed in WW2, and the loonies discredit that.
The plane Pappy's son Dubyah learned to fly in the Texas ANG was the infamous F-102, which was legendary for the number of pilots it killed (bad design). He managed to never kill himself flying it. The plane was retired before he finished his stint.
eilandesq
· 1 year ago
Yep. Again, I'm not deriding GWB--but even his most enthusiastic advocates wouldn't rate him within a light year of Yeager as a pilot, and yet Yeager has had multiple crashes and GWB has had none. Hard to find a better way to puncture this meme in a way that even a Hillary groupie couldn't manage to deliver a comeback to without looking even more idiotic than usual.
MrLynn
· 1 year ago
For goodness' sake! Chuck Yeager was a TEST PILOT! If there's any riskier business short of combat, I don't know what it is.
/Mr Lynn
Archdean
· 1 year ago
""Hey, if you're a pilot you accept the crashes. They build character, unless you get creamed in "the big one".""
Sincerely hope on your next flight, you might want to reconsider that statement unless of course you are the only passenger!!
essucht
· 1 year ago
You aren't seriously comparing flying a fighter jet in combat situations with flying a commercial airliner are you?
What's next, Archdean vs American's top brain surgeon in a game of Jenga to decide who really should be wielding a scapel?
Archdean
· 1 year ago
No Sir I'm not nor did I!
Having retired from both careers the "Crashing statement" I referred to has no place in any pilots resume be it Combat or Civilian!
Thanks anyway but I claim no expertise in Brain surgery! Like yourself!!
docjim505
· 1 year ago
LOL! I'd like to see THAT motto posted over the cockpit door of the next 737 I get on!
lexhamfox
· 1 year ago
It's pretty amazing that people who consider themselves patriots would denigrate any veteran's service (Kerry or McCain).
Both men were combat vets who served their country. McCain endured terrible things while a POW.
It's fine to push out muck on policy but attacking service is pretty awful.
docjim505
· 1 year ago
Splitting hairs with you: I don't think anybody denigrated John Kerry's service: they denigrated John Kerry's STORIES of his service, some of which seemed to be exagerations if not outright fabrications ("Seared in my memory"). Further, a lot of people - including me - wonder about the circumstances under which he left the service and why he STILL will not release his military records. Finally, it rather sticks in the craw to have a man who made a name for himself smearing his fellow GI's and hobnobbing with the enemy try to pass himself off as a war hero.
Chris C
· 1 year ago
Rand Simberg was pushing this crap too, saying something like "It's funny because it's true" and saying it'd be a good way to bring out that famous John McCain temper.
Rosamund
· 1 year ago
The comment that John Derbyshire linked to originated with one man, Steve Sailer, who has confessed to being so uninterested in the presidential race that he didn't even know what Mitt Romney's voice sounded like. It was, as someone pointed out, an off the cuff comment. Sailer is, however, extremely interested in I.Q., its role in leaders, among many other things. It was he who made news during the last election for discovering that Bush was actually smarter than Kerry. He estimated back then that the two men have I.Q.'s in the 115-125 range. He doesn't believe it's the only thing that matters in leaders, but that it is very important.
Other things: Found that the GOP was the party of "Affordable Family Formation" and discovered the single best correlation with Bush's share of the vote in 2004 by state that anybody has yet found is: the average years married by white women between age 18 and 44: an astonishing r-squared = 83 percent.
Senator McCain is in many ways an admirable fellow. This is all just panicky scrabbling on the part of anti-McCain folks.
His debate performance last night, however, made it clear that the rigors of constant campaigning are beginning to take their toll. He made lots of verbal mistakes, mixed up arguments, looked tired, acted cranky, and was clearly trying to grin and bear his way through it. I don't think we ought to fault age reflexively(remember Konrad Adenaur, who left office at 87), but everyone ages differently. Romney seemed positively youthful next to McCain.
We may be stuck with McCain, though, and another Bob Dole walk-through, unless Romney can get the Huckleberry voters to switch to him, and that's pretty doubtful.
/Mr Lynn
Squid_Shark
· 1 year ago
When I saw him on the 28th he looked terrible, I have a pic on my blog, he looked like ass and like he could barely get out a sentence, someone there mentioned that he hadnt slept in 4 days.
Rovin
· 1 year ago
Just for the record Mr. Lynn-------Bob Dole NEVER led Bill Clinton in the polls and had Ross Perot to contend with to boot. Who's leading Clinton and Obama this time? And who is behind both of these democratic candidates by double digits?
MrLynn
· 1 year ago
Good point, Rovin. Though I wouldn't put too much faith in the polls at this far remove from November. The head-to-head matchups that show McCain doing much better against the Dems than Romney may reflect nothing more than name recognition. McCain was, after all, the chief contender against George W. Bush in 2000, and has been constantly in the news and on TV ever since. Romney is known in those states where he has actively campaigned, but not much elsewhere.
/Mr Lynn
Steve Z
· 1 year ago
The posters on this blog (and others) who are criticizing McCain for not being as "conservative" as Romney, and saying that they refuse to vote for McCain if he is the Republican nominee, might want to take a look at the latest Fox News poll.
The poll shows McCain leading Clinton 45-44, and trailing Obama 44-43, while Romney loses big to both Clinton 50-36 and Obama 51-33. It's true that the Fox sample included 42% Democrats and 33% Republicans, whereas Rasmussen estimates the current electorate as only 37% Democrats and 33% Republicans.
The big revelation is in the Fox poll's internals. Among Republican voters, McCain beats Clinton 86-7 and Obama 80-10, while Romney beats Clinton 73-13 and Obama by 63-21. For all the comments about McCain not being able to rally the Republican base, the poll shows that McCain carries the base much better than Romney-- 13 points better against Clinton and 17 points better against Obama.
True, this is only one poll, and things might change by November. But conservatives who can't stomach McCain seem to be over-represented in blogs relative to the voting population, who aren't sold on Romney. The other lesson from this poll is--if McCain is the GOP nominee, this election will be VERY close, and McCain will need every conservative vote he can get, even if they hold their noses. Consider the alternative.
MrLynn
· 1 year ago
The primaries (since we seem stuck with them; I'd prefer smoke-filled rooms in August) are the place for party members to pick their candidates. Speculating how they would do against the possible opposition almost a year from the election is an empty exercise (in which, admittedly, I have indulged).
Once a candidate is nominated and the electorate becomes familiar with him, then maybe polls will mean something. McCain, for better or worse, is as familiar to Republicans as an old shoe, and everyone is more comfortable with the familiar.
FWIW, I suspect McCain won't stand a chance against Obama, who is much more articulate, energetic, and charismatic. McCain might even have trouble with Missus Slick, though I think (hope?) enough Americans will recoil at the prospect of putting Mister Slick back in the White House that they will vote for the Republican.
The polls won't reflect that prospect until it is imminent.
/Mr Lynn
AndyJ
· 1 year ago
As A Navy you know that -If your Grandfather was an Admiral, Your Father was an Admiral, You finished Annapolis, you Mother plays brdge with ALL the Navy Wifes in Coronado and were a genuine war hero... You would be more than a Commander when you retired. Having a young Blonde whose Daddy owned a beer distributor is every fighter pilots dream., but leaving your wife is bad form...
John McCain is an Empty Suit. He will be swayed by his last appointment of the day or whoever he has dinner with... He is limited and inflexible. He cannot be judged by the people he hires or associates with as he has never hired anyone-or appointed anyone...
He cannot be trusted on Judges, The Economy, Taxes, Healthcare, or entitlements... He is too maleable...
I didn't like him in 1998, 2000, and since then he has not impressed me. I also doubt that he will finish a term in office due to either physical or mental incapacity...
The Navy has traditions and protects its own. If John McCain is not one to be trusted with command of an aircraft carrier-why should we trust him with command of the nation-?
JLan
· 1 year ago
"As A Navy you know that -If your Grandfather was an Admiral, Your Father was an Admiral, You finished Annapolis, you Mother plays brdge with ALL the Navy Wifes in Coronado and were a genuine war hero... You would be more than a Commander when you retired."
McCain was more than a commander when he retired: he retired as a Captain.
As for "cannot be trusted"...what makes you think that Mitt Romney can be trusted? I'm not entirely sure where this rediculous stuff is coming from.
Sailfish
· 1 year ago
With all the animus I hear and read from many, if not most, of the Conservative punditry (The Corner, Hannity, Rush, Coulter, et. al.) towards McCain, I'm beginning to wonder if "they protest too much". From my bird's eye view, neither Romney nor McCain can claim the "Conservative" banner without qualifying it with a 15 minutes recital of "that was then, this is now" rationalizations.
The thing is, if I'm not mistaken, all of the above anti-McCain folks were anti-McCain/Pro-Bush folks back in 2000 which probably helped elect Bush. There's no way of proving this hypothetical but I could make a case that had McCain been nominated and elected back in 2000, al Qaeda may very well have been deterred from the WTC terrorist attack; primarily because their benefactors would have no misconceptions as to what a President McCain would have done in response. Not to put too fine of a point on it but their opinions today mean a whole lot less today than they did in 2000 and with these scurrilous attacks on McCain military service (by those who have not served, btw), I've pretty much decided that McCain will get my vote just out of spite.
A little off-topic but CNN quoted Romney stating:
'McCain's decision to level the timetable charge during the Florida primary before Romney could rebut it "was reminiscent of the Nixon era," Romney said.'
Listen, I'm not Nixon apologist but I just find it a little odd that a Republican would be preaching the Dem narrative. I mean, it isn't that the Democrats don't have their own less than stellar past presidents that he could have chosen from instead. For example, considering the LBJ "Daisy" ad against Goldwater, he could have been on solid ground to have stated that it "was reminiscent of the Johnsonian era", no?
AH_C
· 1 year ago
Concur. Aviation skills are irrelevant to POTUS skills. Talking about them aside from a historical POV is pointless
ERNurse
· 1 year ago
I'm not a McCain supporter, but I grew up around Naval Air.
This attack is really, really stupid.
I can tell you by watching the Naval Air scene years ago (Dad was in Naval Air) that you do NOT make Commander, Air Group by screwing up, and certainly not by pranging a bunch of airplanes.
Romney ought to be drilled in the butt for this. He's just as bad as McCain. God help this country if this is the best the GOP can come up with.
Dear GOP: Screw you. I'm going independent.
DJ Elliott
· 1 year ago
The film from the Plat camera was used for DC training thruout my Navy Career. Nine 1000lb bombs went off on the Forestfire that day...
sanssoucy
· 1 year ago
Even Chuck Yeager didn't bat .1000 as far as always returning to base with an intact airplane.
Anybody think *he's* a sucky pilot?
CDR_M
· 1 year ago
I cannot believe that people are actually saying some of this stuff about McCain's service. Crikey, planes crashed a lot more back in the day than they do now. With NATOPS manuals, ORM and CRM training, Naval Aviation has become a lot safer than back then. Blaming him for the Forrestal fire strains the gray membrane. McCain attained the rank of Captain and you don't make that rank being a knucklehead. Focus on the political side, that's where the real issues are. The fact that Obama used McCain as an example that liberal policies work in their debate last night is far more damaging.
Archdean
· 1 year ago
I agree, save for that it was his error that set the USS Forrestal mishap into motion!
That still is not my main problem with Sen McCain, it is that his lifelong conduct has been less then stellar and some of us veteran pilots know it!!
In any event what really matters today is his demeanor and he showed a pot full of it last night!
Buyer beware things aren't always what they seem especially in politics!
Bennett
· 1 year ago
I am on a self-imposed moratorium from posting here until the GOP nomination is settled (but of course still read since Captain Ed is actually quite a good writer and not that many bloggers are) except I can't let this go by.
What is your evidence that McCain's "error" set the Forrestal afire? Because that doesn't seem to be the case. From Wikipedia:
"Because of a shortage of thousand-pound bombs, old Composition B bombs had been loaded from the ammunition ship USS Diamond Head, instead of safer H6, capable of withstanding high heat or exploding with low order. About 10:50 (local time), while preparations for a second strike were being made (fueling and arming planes), a Zuni rocket was accidentally fired from an F-4 Phantom II by an electrical power surge during the switch from external power to internal power. It flew across the flight deck, striking a wing-mounted external fuel tank on an A-4 Skyhawk piloted by Lt. Cmdr. John McCain, which was waiting to launch. The warhead's safety mechanism prevented it from detonating, but the impact tore the tank off the wing and ignited the resulting spray of pressurized fuel, causing an instantaneous conflagration. With his aircraft surrounded by flames, McCain escaped by climbing out of the cockpit, walking down the nose and jumping off the refueling probe. The impact had also dislodged two of the thousand-pound bombs which now lay in the burning fuel. The fire teams chief, Gerald Farrier, without benefit of protective clothing immediately used a fire extinguisher to protect the bombs from cooking off. The fire team normally had almost three minutes to get the temperature down but the chief did not realise the condition of the bombs had altered this significantly until one split open. The chief called for the fire team to withdraw but the bomb exploded seconds later."
One minute and thirty-four seconds after the impact and initial fire, and with the on-deck firefighting teams actively battling the blaze, a "Comp. B" bomb cooked off from the heat of the flames and exploded underneath McCain's plane; the force destroyed the aircraft (along with its remaining fuel and armament), blew a smoking crater in the deck, and sprayed the deck and crew with shrapnel and burning jet fuel. The explosion killed all but three of the on-deck firefighting contingent who were seriously injured. The two bomb-laden A-4s in line ahead of McCain's were riddled with shrapnel from the explosion and engulfed in the flaming JP-5 jet fuel still spreading over the deck, causing more bombs to detonate and more fuel to spill."
Okay back to my silence only status.
Archdean
· 1 year ago
Does Wikipedia also inform you why none of the other Pow's are never mentioned by Senator McCain?
Bennett, you believe what you want and I support your right to do so but to use Wikipedia as a reference knowing that it is self editable is not exactly what I would call a great start!
LJE
· 1 year ago
Archdean, just what do you think was McCain's "error" in the Forrestal tragedy? This is well-known history. Hell, there's a couple of different documentaries that have been shown on the History channel, and the Navy video of the flight deck accident and fire are easily found on YouTube. What do you claim his "error" was? Not dying in the flames?
Archdean
· 1 year ago
Bennett/LJE In attempting to bring some early cronilogical facts to answer your questions I find that I am unable to do so because the request was met with this statement from USS Forrestal (CV-59) The page "lieutenant-commander" you want to access does not exist. Think what you like!
I have nothing more to say about the subject!
LJE
· 1 year ago
You're not making any sense, Archdean. Good luck on finding "cronilogical facts" -- you'd probably have more luck with a craniorectal self-exam.
Archdean
· 1 year ago
Perhaps, here is the highlighted sentence and embedded link,,, Please post the results of your exam LJE! It flew across the flight deck, striking a wing-mounted external fuel tank on an A-4 Skyhawk piloted by Lt. Cmdr. [[[John McCain], which was waiting to launch. http://militarypower.wikidot.com/lieutenant-com...
kecker
· 1 year ago
You are making absolutely zero sense.
You're making unsubstantiated claims of a very serious nature. Actually we're not even sure what definite claim your making because you refuse to elaborate beyond a very vague "it's all McCain's fault".
And you appear to be basing it upon a non-existent link.
By your rationale, Capt Ed is a reptilian alien king, who has arrived on this planet to enslave us all with the help of the re-animated corpse of President Taft. I would offer proof of this but the link that proves everything (because the internet can be believed) is dead....but here's the link anyway. http://www.totallyconvincingproof.com/of/everyt...
captained
· 1 year ago
Capt Ed is a reptilian alien king, who has arrived on this planet to enslave us all with the help of the re-animated corpse of President Taft.
Damn .... my secret is out ....
Bennett
· 1 year ago
What??? Have you watched his campaign video? At least two other POWs are on there, Orson Swindle and Medal of Honor Bud Day. But maybe they're phony heroes too. You can see it here:
Sorry, the Forrestal fire started when a Zuni rocket was set off by an electrical malfunction on a F-4 Phantom, streaked across the flight deck, nearly cutting a sailor in two, and impacted McCain's A-4. He was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.
The fire was made worse because the Forrestal had just recieved a shipment of World War II-era bombs that were unstable; as well as the fact that the Navy had gone soft on some Damage Control doctrine/training since the end of that war. In particular, the loss of the trained flight deck fire crews due to ordnance cookoff in the initial phase of the mishap made for a long day.
Squid_Shark
· 1 year ago
"that it was his error that set the USS Forrestal mishap into motion!" Not true! McCain's plane was not the one that fired the rocket, all Naval officers have to study the Forrestal incident.
okonkolo
· 1 year ago
Compared to what Rove did to him in 2000, this is pretty mild, but I agree with the Captain's take.
Smarty
· 1 year ago
His lost planes do not disqualify him from being president.
However, losing 5 planes (one not being his fault, or even from the "shrapnel lottery") when he had not been in very long as an actual pilot and had only 20 hours of combat flight time is not something that adds to his having been a fighter pilot. When you take those same 20 hours of combat flight time, and divide by his 28 medals that he got, and factor in that his dad and granddad were both Admirals, you come up with someone with little more war hero cred. than John Kerry.
And when being a "war hero" is 3/4 of your political gravitas, that is disasterous.
docjim505
· 1 year ago
This is a bit much. I'm not a fan of John McCain's, but lumping him in with Jean-Francois Kerry is unfair. I respect the fact that Kerry served. He's been shot at and wounded in the service of our country. What he's done since tarnishes an otherwise honorable chapter in his life; his hobnobbing with the communists in Paris, his disgraceful testimony before the Senate, and his loathesome antiwar activities make him little better than Benedict Arnold in my view.
Not so John McCain. I don't agree with much of his politics and don't like what I know of his personality, but I think he's a true-blue patriot who has maintained his honor since leaving the service. And when I think about what he went through while in the bloody, brutal hands of the communists... He's more of a man than I'll ever be. I respect that.
All Comments
I've heard the "meme" that being a pilot or a member of the service doesn't make one a hero a lot over the past few days, and it is true, but John McCain is not a hero because he served. He is a hero because of what he did while a POW.
- 10/26/67 shot down while flying an A4 Skyhawk on a 20-plane mission to Hanoi by an SA2 missile while pulling up after dropping his bombs.
- broke both arms and one leg and landed in Truc Bach Lake in Hanoi where he was pulled from the water by angry locals and beaten, shoulder crushed and bayoneted in the foot and abdomen.
- wasn't given medical treatment until 2 days later when they found out he was son of a navy admiral.
- 12/67 after hospitalization, transferred to POW camp in Hanoi and put in a cell with Bud Day who won medal of honor. Bud and other prisoner nursed McCain to keep him from dying.
- 3/68 McCain put in solitary confinement where he would remain for two years.
- 7/68 McCain's father made CINCPAC and McCain offered a chance to be released. McCain refused on grounds that military CoC requires first prisoners captured to be first released.
- 8/68 Vietnamese began torture regimen on McCain. After four days of brutality and a failed suicide attempt, McCain broke and signed a confession saying that he was a "black criminal" and an "air pirate". McCain retained sufficient state of mind to use quirky language and syntax to signal that the confession was coersed.
- 8/68 after refusing to sign a second confession, torture began anew although it was less intense.
- when forced to reveal names of his squadron member, gave names of Packers offensive line.
- refused to meet with visiting anti-war groups.
- 12/69 McCain transferred to Hanoi Hilton.
- 3/15/73 McCain released as a result of Paris Peace Accords.
So essentially, John McCain gave up five years of his life to a hellhole that you and I would be hard-put to imagine on the principle that he would not accept a gesture of grace ahead of his fellow prisoners. McCain did not have any reason to believe that he would survive his imprisonment or ever be released. You could argue that he was just following the rules, and he was, but he would not have been stood against the wall by the Navy if he'd accepted the offer.
I didn't vote for McCain, and I'm not sure I can vote for him in November if he wins the nomination, but he will always be welcome at my table if he's hungry.
"I didn't vote for McCain, and I'm not sure I can vote for him in November if he wins the nomination, but he will always be welcome at my table if he's hungry."
/Mr Lynn
Two of my good friends are in a watery grave…probably still strapped in their planes.
Captain's right. Irrelevant to the candidate. Funny how the usual lefty trolls come out of the woodwork to "defend" McCain. I'm old enough to remember that these are the same “fellow travelers” who disparaged Bush Sr.
The lefties who compare Jon Kary's to McCain have no idea how foolish they seem to those of us who have been involved in Combat Operations. Kary and his minions trumpeted the “fact” that he was a war hero. McCain, a real war hero, doesn’t NEED TO. I’ve met more than a few bona fide, war heroes…none of them ever trumpet their “war hero status”. Judging from the fact that the lefty cowards keep drooling over Kary’s war hero claim, their intended audience must be impressed by it. Real men, those....
As is the case for every human endeavor, not all “service” is equal. Even when the service is conducted in an HONORABLE manner. Kary’s dishonorable behavior after his Navy service speaks for itself.
You guys REALLY believe the "polls" that say McCain can beat Hildabeast or the Dope? Why do you think the lefties and the MSM want McCain to be the Repub candidate? So a Repub gets in the WH? You must be "Three Sheets to the Wind"...stop bogarting the Grog, leave a little of that for your shipmates...we're gonna need it.
This is something that always bothered my about Jean-Francoise Kerry. As you say, must men who have been there and done that don't talk much about it, either because the memories are painful and / or because they knew other men who were at least as brave as they were even though they might not have been awarded any medals. Kerry's shameless boasting about his war record - some of which he fabricated - was a bit hard to swallow.
You're right: real heroes don't need to go around telling people how heroic they are.
If you don't believe the wikipedia account of the Forrestal fire, how about an eyewitness. 40 years ago I was an 20 year old ordnanceman on the flight deck when McCain's plane caught fire. It happened just as described by Bennet. The only thing wrong was the 1000 lbs bombs were not WW2 vintage but from 1953 or the Korean War.
BillW
Second, putting the two words "McCain" and "war" together in any sentence, no matter the verbs, adjectives and adverbs, helps the man. Everyone knows his POW story, and everyone knows he stuck his neck out on Iraq with more at risk than any other politician in the country. I know people don't like him for his other positions, but he deserves better treatment for that alone than Rush, Hannity and the other hatchet men out there have accorded him.
This is probably an effort to get the man to show more of the vituperative side he displayed last night -- anything to get under his skin and hope he blows a gasket during a presser. Because otherwise, this doesn't peel a single vote away from McCain.
What originally got Kerry's fellow Swift Boat Vets to let lose was when he started using them in his advertisements. Its one thing to insult a man you served with, quite another to then use him as a backdrop for your political aspirations.
I don't think I'll ever understand the Kerry dichotomy - on the one hand he said he was a war criminal like our other service men, and on the other hand that the primary reason he should be elected President because he was a war hero while Bush was a mere National Guard pilot.
But then I guess he presumed the media would provide cover for him all the way until the election, and of course, they almost did...
I have observed that throughout the time I have followed your blog, and your sense of fair play extends even to those who vehemently disagree with you.
As someone who sometimes does disagree with you, it is deeply appreciated.
McCain's own political record isn't enough to attack him with?
This is almost as bad as the Clintons' race baiting.
Dubya has taken much grief for being in TANG flying jets, just not in 'Nam. I figure he was in at least as much danger as Lurch in 'Nam with his self-inflicted purple hearts in 4 months of service or the Goreacle in rear echelons of Vietnam with his own bodyguards.
McCain may well have been heroic as a pilot and POW, but how does that really make him desirable or qualified at Prez? I am not at all impressed with the 100 members of the Senate. As far as heroic POWs are concerned, why wasn't Admiral James Stockdale elected President? He was Ross Perot's somewhat spaced out running mate.
300 million Americans and we can't do better than hillary, obamba or mccain????
Sure, Washington or Eisenhower's resume was a strong one to run for President, but I don't think someone like McCain should really get credit in *this* regard.
Oh, and as for the Paultards, considering his history and the state of the GOP race right now, one wonders how someone *credible* running on a conservative/libertarian platform might have done?
I doubt enough to win the nomination, but perhaps to change the dynamic...
That being said, anyone who will strap themselves into a mach 2 missile magnet deserves admiration for guts.
So, were I one of them, I'd be a bit happier with my choices...
Not necessarily in an aircraft.
When I think ware hero I think names like Eisenhower, Patton, Audie Murphy, Sgt York, Eddie Richenbacher. Men that risked their lives or acted with such brilliance and fearlessness that countless American lives were saved and wars were won.
So what exactly did McCain do that was heroic? He was a pilot. That's a job, not a heroic deed. He was shot down and became a POW. That's unfortunate, but not heroic. But when did John McCain ever rush a machine-gun nest and single-handedly save his platoon? Never.
If everyone is a hero, then no one is a hero. The job of soldiers is to fight wars. Simply doing their job is not heroic. You don't get an A+ in class just for showing up. Unless we are ready to call everyone who ever put on a uniform a "war hero", we cannot give John McCain that honor.
McCain became a hero when he refused to take the early release because he was an admirals son.
He lost it when he didn't visit the guy who nursed him in the Hanoi Hilton. McCain has broken arms and broken legs... Somebody fed him and cleaned up his poop... You'd think McCain would have that guy standing at his side.... I do not recall ever reading that McCain looked him up for a "Thank You"... (My buddy who has a Vietnam CMH noted that tidbit as his reason for opposing McCain)...
--Anthony (Los Angeles)
Calling him on this stuff is weak, very weak.
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com...
"McCain III lost jet number one in 1958 when he plunged into Corpus Christi Bay while practicing landings. He was knocked unconscious by the impact coming to as the plane settled to the bottom.
McCain's second crash occurred while he was deployed in the Mediterranean. "Flying too low over the Iberian Peninsula," Timberg wrote, "he took out some power lines [reminiscent of the 1998 incident in which a Marine Corps jet sliced through the cables of a gondola at an Italian ski resort, killing 20] which led to a spate of newspaper stories in which he was predictably identified as the son of an admiral."
McCain's third crash three occurred when he was returning from flying a Navy trainer solo to Philadelphia for an Army-Navy football game.
Timberg reported that McCain radioed, "I've got a flameout" and went through standard relight procedures three times before ejecting at one thousand feet. McCain landed on a deserted beach moments before the plane slammed into a clump of trees.
McCain's fourth aircraft loss occurred July 29, 1967, soon after he was assigned to the USS Forrestal as an A-4 Skyhawk pilot. While seated in the cockpit of his aircraft waiting his turn for takeoff, an accidently fired rocket slammed into McCain's plane. He escaped from the burning aircraft, but the explosions that followed killed 134 sailors, destroyed at least 20 aircraft, and threatened to sink the ship.
McCain's fifth loss happened during his 23rd mission over North Vietnam on Oct. 26, 1967, when McCain's A-4 Skyhawk was shot down by a surface-to-air missile. McCain ejected from the plane breaking both arms and a leg in the process and subsequently parachuted into Truc Bach Lake near Hanoi. "
A few comments: the Naval Aviation Safety Program, compared to what we have today, really hadn't even born yet when he was doing operational flying. Even today, teaching of CRM and Operational Risk Management skills in flight school has really only come about in the last ten years, and is still a little weak--when I went through Pensacola '97/'98, the only way to acquire knowledge of airmanship and "headwork" was by listening to sea stories and reading accident reports. Naval Aviation has come light-years since 1967.
Also, the squadron environment was really different back in the 50s/60s--prangs were expected, and you were then expected to go flying the next day--the best cure being the "hair of the dog that bit you". For a good feel for the times, go read the first chapter in Wolfe's The Right Stuff. It truly *can* bust at any seam.
Having said that--I'm kind of curious about the first three, just from a professional perspective.
But as far as the last aircraft loss--good lord knows how many times I did the "exploding cantaloupe" during Air Wing events, when all heck seemed to breaking loose, the radios were clobbered, and you just couldn't keep track of everything. I can only imagine how it was downtown in '67, before a lot of the SAM countertactics and warning gear had been developed. Air Wing strikesare hard enough in a two-man jet with modern gear--a cramped Rolling Thunder-era Skyhawk has got to be, for the pilot, a combination of information overload and an Situational Awareness black-hole.
I would surmise that the world's expert on what, if anything, could have been done differently in those last few moments is probably a certain John S. McCain, since, I believe, he probably spent at least some time reflecting upon it.
This entire thing is a non-issue.
The discussion has returned to issues far more germane to the contest, e.g. McCain on judicial appointments!
Ted Olsen and Stephen Calebresi have endorsed McCain.
Obviously, each of them considers Alito too conservative, and deserves attack.
Besides, we still have hope -- no less a sage than Jack Cafferty on CNN just said that a couple more performances by McCain like last night's debate and we'll be looking at Romney as GOP nominee. The other CNN talking heads were stunned at the prospect.
McCain has had an up-front and personal introduction to Murphy's Law. The last five years, his behavior has enraged me on several occasions. Yet, I prefer him to anyone the dems have to offer, and I'm looking for reasons to like him. This "smear" serves very well. The guy's got guts.
Not a pilot, eh?
He has written much about I.Q. and presidents, and its role in wisdom. He doesn't believe it's the only thing that matters, but that it is very important.
I don't recall many people thinking this stuff was silly when it was Kerry's service being attacked.
As for Kerry, he was "attacked" by a group of military people who actually served with him in 'Nam. Are the Vietnam Vets against McCain people ex-military who actually served with him?
Pilots who have been involved in multiple plane crashes:. . .John McCain, Chuck Yeager, . . .
Pilots who never were involved in a plane crash:. . . .George W. Bush, . . .
It'd be fun to show this to a group of the usual suspects and watching their heads explode from the cognitive dissonance.*
*--in case it isn't obvious, I'm not insulting GWB--I'm pointing out that Chuck freaking Yeager has been involved in multiple plane crashes: it obviously isn't inconsistent with being a great pilot, and having no plane crashes on one's record doesn't make one a legendary pilot.
Bush's Dad Pappy's plane crashed in WW2, and the loonies discredit that.
The plane Pappy's son Dubyah learned to fly in the Texas ANG was the infamous F-102, which was legendary for the number of pilots it killed (bad design). He managed to never kill himself flying it. The plane was retired before he finished his stint.
/Mr Lynn
Sincerely hope on your next flight, you might want to reconsider that statement unless of course you are the only passenger!!
What's next, Archdean vs American's top brain surgeon in a game of Jenga to decide who really should be wielding a scapel?
Having retired from both careers the "Crashing statement" I referred to has no place in any pilots resume be it Combat or Civilian!
Thanks anyway but I claim no expertise in Brain surgery! Like yourself!!
Both men were combat vets who served their country. McCain endured terrible things while a POW.
It's fine to push out muck on policy but attacking service is pretty awful.
Sailer is, however, extremely interested in I.Q., its role in leaders, among many other things. It was he who made news during the last election for discovering that Bush was actually smarter than Kerry. He estimated back then that the two men have I.Q.'s in the 115-125 range. He doesn't believe it's the only thing that matters in leaders, but that it is very important.
Other things: Found that the GOP was the party of "Affordable Family Formation" and discovered
the single best correlation with Bush's share of the vote in 2004 by state that anybody has yet found is: the average years married by white women between age 18 and 44: an astonishing r-squared = 83 percent.
http://www.vdare.com/sailer/050508_family.htm
His debate performance last night, however, made it clear that the rigors of constant campaigning are beginning to take their toll. He made lots of verbal mistakes, mixed up arguments, looked tired, acted cranky, and was clearly trying to grin and bear his way through it. I don't think we ought to fault age reflexively(remember Konrad Adenaur, who left office at 87), but everyone ages differently. Romney seemed positively youthful next to McCain.
We may be stuck with McCain, though, and another Bob Dole walk-through, unless Romney can get the Huckleberry voters to switch to him, and that's pretty doubtful.
/Mr Lynn
/Mr Lynn
"conservative" as Romney, and saying that they refuse to vote for McCain if he is the Republican nominee, might want to take a look at the latest Fox News poll.
The poll shows McCain leading Clinton 45-44, and trailing Obama 44-43, while
Romney loses big to both Clinton 50-36 and Obama 51-33. It's true that the Fox
sample included 42% Democrats and 33% Republicans, whereas Rasmussen
estimates the current electorate as only 37% Democrats and 33% Republicans.
The big revelation is in the Fox poll's internals. Among Republican voters, McCain beats
Clinton 86-7 and Obama 80-10, while Romney beats Clinton 73-13 and Obama
by 63-21. For all the comments about McCain not being able to rally the Republican
base, the poll shows that McCain carries the base much better than Romney--
13 points better against Clinton and 17 points better against Obama.
True, this is only one poll, and things might change by November. But conservatives
who can't stomach McCain seem to be over-represented in blogs relative to the
voting population, who aren't sold on Romney. The other lesson from this poll is--if McCain is the GOP nominee, this election will be VERY close, and McCain will need every conservative vote he can get, even if they hold their noses. Consider the alternative.
Once a candidate is nominated and the electorate becomes familiar with him, then maybe polls will mean something. McCain, for better or worse, is as familiar to Republicans as an old shoe, and everyone is more comfortable with the familiar.
FWIW, I suspect McCain won't stand a chance against Obama, who is much more articulate, energetic, and charismatic. McCain might even have trouble with Missus Slick, though I think (hope?) enough Americans will recoil at the prospect of putting Mister Slick back in the White House that they will vote for the Republican.
The polls won't reflect that prospect until it is imminent.
/Mr Lynn
John McCain is an Empty Suit. He will be swayed by his last appointment of the day or whoever he has dinner with... He is limited and inflexible. He cannot be judged by the people he hires or associates with as he has never hired anyone-or appointed anyone...
He cannot be trusted on Judges, The Economy, Taxes, Healthcare, or entitlements... He is too maleable...
I didn't like him in 1998, 2000, and since then he has not impressed me. I also doubt that he will finish a term in office due to either physical or mental incapacity...
The Navy has traditions and protects its own. If John McCain is not one to be trusted with command of an aircraft carrier-why should we trust him with command of the nation-?
McCain was more than a commander when he retired: he retired as a Captain.
As for "cannot be trusted"...what makes you think that Mitt Romney can be trusted? I'm not entirely sure where this rediculous stuff is coming from.
The thing is, if I'm not mistaken, all of the above anti-McCain folks were anti-McCain/Pro-Bush folks back in 2000 which probably helped elect Bush. There's no way of proving this hypothetical but I could make a case that had McCain been nominated and elected back in 2000, al Qaeda may very well have been deterred from the WTC terrorist attack; primarily because their benefactors would have no misconceptions as to what a President McCain would have done in response. Not to put too fine of a point on it but their opinions today mean a whole lot less today than they did in 2000 and with these scurrilous attacks on McCain military service (by those who have not served, btw), I've pretty much decided that McCain will get my vote just out of spite.
A little off-topic but CNN quoted Romney stating:
'McCain's decision to level the timetable charge during the Florida primary before Romney could rebut it "was reminiscent of the Nixon era," Romney said.'
Listen, I'm not Nixon apologist but I just find it a little odd that a Republican would be preaching the Dem narrative. I mean, it isn't that the Democrats don't have their own less than stellar past presidents that he could have chosen from instead. For example, considering the LBJ "Daisy" ad against Goldwater, he could have been on solid ground to have stated that it "was reminiscent of the Johnsonian era", no?
This attack is really, really stupid.
I can tell you by watching the Naval Air scene years ago (Dad was in Naval Air) that you do NOT make Commander, Air Group by screwing up, and certainly not by pranging a bunch of airplanes.
Romney ought to be drilled in the butt for this. He's just as bad as McCain. God help this country if this is the best the GOP can come up with.
Dear GOP: Screw you. I'm going independent.
Anybody think *he's* a sucky pilot?
That still is not my main problem with Sen McCain, it is that his lifelong conduct has been less then stellar and some of us veteran pilots know it!!
In any event what really matters today is his demeanor and he showed a pot full of it last night!
Buyer beware things aren't always what they seem especially in politics!
What is your evidence that McCain's "error" set the Forrestal afire? Because that doesn't seem to be the case. From Wikipedia:
"Because of a shortage of thousand-pound bombs, old Composition B bombs had been loaded from the ammunition ship USS Diamond Head, instead of safer H6, capable of withstanding high heat or exploding with low order. About 10:50 (local time), while preparations for a second strike were being made (fueling and arming planes), a Zuni rocket was accidentally fired from an F-4 Phantom II by an electrical power surge during the switch from external power to internal power. It flew across the flight deck, striking a wing-mounted external fuel tank on an A-4 Skyhawk piloted by Lt. Cmdr. John McCain, which was waiting to launch. The warhead's safety mechanism prevented it from detonating, but the impact tore the tank off the wing and ignited the resulting spray of pressurized fuel, causing an instantaneous conflagration. With his aircraft surrounded by flames, McCain escaped by climbing out of the cockpit, walking down the nose and jumping off the refueling probe. The impact had also dislodged two of the thousand-pound bombs which now lay in the burning fuel. The fire teams chief, Gerald Farrier, without benefit of protective clothing immediately used a fire extinguisher to protect the bombs from cooking off. The fire team normally had almost three minutes to get the temperature down but the chief did not realise the condition of the bombs had altered this significantly until one split open. The chief called for the fire team to withdraw but the bomb exploded seconds later."
One minute and thirty-four seconds after the impact and initial fire, and with the on-deck firefighting teams actively battling the blaze, a "Comp. B" bomb cooked off from the heat of the flames and exploded underneath McCain's plane; the force destroyed the aircraft (along with its remaining fuel and armament), blew a smoking crater in the deck, and sprayed the deck and crew with shrapnel and burning jet fuel. The explosion killed all but three of the on-deck firefighting contingent who were seriously injured. The two bomb-laden A-4s in line ahead of McCain's were riddled with shrapnel from the explosion and engulfed in the flaming JP-5 jet fuel still spreading over the deck, causing more bombs to detonate and more fuel to spill."
Okay back to my silence only status.
Bennett, you believe what you want and I support your right to do so but to use Wikipedia as a reference knowing that it is self editable is not exactly what I would call a great start!
In attempting to bring some early cronilogical facts to answer your questions I find that I am unable to do so because the request was met with this statement from USS Forrestal (CV-59)
The page "lieutenant-commander" you want to access does not exist.
Think what you like!
I have nothing more to say about the subject!
It flew across the flight deck, striking a wing-mounted external fuel tank on an A-4 Skyhawk piloted by Lt. Cmdr. [[[John McCain], which was waiting to launch.
http://militarypower.wikidot.com/lieutenant-com...
You're making unsubstantiated claims of a very serious nature. Actually we're not even sure what definite claim your making because you refuse to elaborate beyond a very vague "it's all McCain's fault".
And you appear to be basing it upon a non-existent link.
By your rationale, Capt Ed is a reptilian alien king, who has arrived on this planet to enslave us all with the help of the re-animated corpse of President Taft. I would offer proof of this but the link that proves everything (because the internet can be believed) is dead....but here's the link anyway.
http://www.totallyconvincingproof.com/of/everyt...
Damn .... my secret is out ....
http://www.johnmccain.com/bvid/
And if you don't like wiki on the Forrestal tragedy, try this:
http://forrestal.org/fidfacts/page13.htm
The fire was made worse because the Forrestal had just recieved a shipment of World War II-era bombs that were unstable; as well as the fact that the Navy had gone soft on some Damage Control doctrine/training since the end of that war. In particular, the loss of the trained flight deck fire crews due to ordnance cookoff in the initial phase of the mishap made for a long day.
Not true! McCain's plane was not the one that fired the rocket, all Naval officers have to study the Forrestal incident.
However, losing 5 planes (one not being his fault, or even from the "shrapnel lottery") when he had not been in very long as an actual pilot and had only 20 hours of combat flight time is not something that adds to his having been a fighter pilot. When you take those same 20 hours of combat flight time, and divide by his 28 medals that he got, and factor in that his dad and granddad were both Admirals, you come up with someone with little more war hero cred. than John Kerry.
And when being a "war hero" is 3/4 of your political gravitas, that is disasterous.
Not so John McCain. I don't agree with much of his politics and don't like what I know of his personality, but I think he's a true-blue patriot who has maintained his honor since leaving the service. And when I think about what he went through while in the bloody, brutal hands of the communists... He's more of a man than I'll ever be. I respect that.