Captain's Quarters Comments - Latest Comments in Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

Re: Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

ReaganEraGrunt — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 22:33:41 -0000

The highest rank is not necessarily a plus depending on the branch of service. Look at the Lieutenant Colonels and Colonels commanding combat arms battalions and brigades/regiments in the US Army and USMC and you will find some damn fine leaders. Hell, I've worked with no time in grade Staff Sergeants that have far more leadership skills that the current crop of oxygen thieves in congress.

That being said, anyone who will strap themselves into a mach 2 missile magnet deserves admiration for guts.

Re: Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

MrLynn — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 17:43:37 -0000

The primaries (since we seem stuck with them; I'd prefer smoke-filled rooms in August) are the place for party members to pick their candidates. Speculating how they would do against the possible opposition almost a year from the election is an empty exercise (in which, admittedly, I have indulged).

Once a candidate is nominated and the electorate becomes familiar with him, then maybe polls will mean something. McCain, for better or worse, is as familiar to Republicans as an old shoe, and everyone is more comfortable with the familiar.

FWIW, I suspect McCain won't stand a chance against Obama, who is much more articulate, energetic, and charismatic. McCain might even have trouble with Missus Slick, though I think (hope?) enough Americans will recoil at the prospect of putting Mister Slick back in the White House that they will vote for the Republican.

The polls won't reflect that prospect until it is imminent.

/Mr Lynn

Re: Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

captained — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 16:52:30 -0000

Capt Ed is a reptilian alien king, who has arrived on this planet to enslave us all with the help of the re-animated corpse of President Taft.

Damn .... my secret is out ....

Re: Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

herddog505 — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 16:40:56 -0000

This is a bit much. I'm not a fan of John McCain's, but lumping him in with Jean-Francois Kerry is unfair. I respect the fact that Kerry served. He's been shot at and wounded in the service of our country. What he's done since tarnishes an otherwise honorable chapter in his life; his hobnobbing with the communists in Paris, his disgraceful testimony before the Senate, and his loathesome antiwar activities make him little better than Benedict Arnold in my view.

Not so John McCain. I don't agree with much of his politics and don't like what I know of his personality, but I think he's a true-blue patriot who has maintained his honor since leaving the service. And when I think about what he went through while in the bloody, brutal hands of the communists... He's more of a man than I'll ever be. I respect that.

Re: Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

herddog505 — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 16:34:42 -0000

Ditto.

Re: Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

herddog505 — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 16:32:54 -0000

SwabJockey: The lefties who compare Jon Kary's to McCain have no idea how foolish they seem to those of us who have been involved in Combat Operations. Kary and his minions trumpeted the “fact” that he was a war hero. McCain, a real war hero, doesn’t NEED TO. I’ve met more than a few bona fide, war heroes…none of them ever trumpet their “war hero status”.

This is something that always bothered my about Jean-Francoise Kerry. As you say, must men who have been there and done that don't talk much about it, either because the memories are painful and / or because they knew other men who were at least as brave as they were even though they might not have been awarded any medals. Kerry's shameless boasting about his war record - some of which he fabricated - was a bit hard to swallow.

You're right: real heroes don't need to go around telling people how heroic they are.

Re: Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

Steve Z — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 15:18:19 -0000

The posters on this blog (and others) who are criticizing McCain for not being as
"conservative" as Romney, and saying that they refuse to vote for McCain if he is the Republican nominee, might want to take a look at the latest Fox News poll.

The poll shows McCain leading Clinton 45-44, and trailing Obama 44-43, while
Romney loses big to both Clinton 50-36 and Obama 51-33. It's true that the Fox
sample included 42% Democrats and 33% Republicans, whereas Rasmussen
estimates the current electorate as only 37% Democrats and 33% Republicans.

The big revelation is in the Fox poll's internals. Among Republican voters, McCain beats
Clinton 86-7 and Obama 80-10, while Romney beats Clinton 73-13 and Obama
by 63-21. For all the comments about McCain not being able to rally the Republican
base, the poll shows that McCain carries the base much better than Romney--
13 points better against Clinton and 17 points better against Obama.

True, this is only one poll, and things might change by November. But conservatives
who can't stomach McCain seem to be over-represented in blogs relative to the
voting population, who aren't sold on Romney. The other lesson from this poll is--if McCain is the GOP nominee, this election will be VERY close, and McCain will need every conservative vote he can get, even if they hold their noses. Consider the alternative.

Re: Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

kecker — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 14:46:41 -0000

You are making absolutely zero sense.

You're making unsubstantiated claims of a very serious nature. Actually we're not even sure what definite claim your making because you refuse to elaborate beyond a very vague "it's all McCain's fault".

And you appear to be basing it upon a non-existent link.

By your rationale, Capt Ed is a reptilian alien king, who has arrived on this planet to enslave us all with the help of the re-animated corpse of President Taft. I would offer proof of this but the link that proves everything (because the internet can be believed) is dead....but here's the link anyway.
http://www.totallyconvincin...

Re: Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

MrLynn — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 13:29:16 -0000

Good point, Rovin. Though I wouldn't put too much faith in the polls at this far remove from November. The head-to-head matchups that show McCain doing much better against the Dems than Romney may reflect nothing more than name recognition. McCain was, after all, the chief contender against George W. Bush in 2000, and has been constantly in the news and on TV ever since. Romney is known in those states where he has actively campaigned, but not much elsewhere.

/Mr Lynn

Re: Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

Smarty — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 13:06:15 -0000

His lost planes do not disqualify him from being president.

However, losing 5 planes (one not being his fault, or even from the "shrapnel lottery") when he had not been in very long as an actual pilot and had only 20 hours of combat flight time is not something that adds to his having been a fighter pilot. When you take those same 20 hours of combat flight time, and divide by his 28 medals that he got, and factor in that his dad and granddad were both Admirals, you come up with someone with little more war hero cred. than John Kerry.

And when being a "war hero" is 3/4 of your political gravitas, that is disasterous.

Re: Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

MrLynn — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 12:34:25 -0000

Great post, Immolate. Helps to keep things in perspective.

"I didn't vote for McCain, and I'm not sure I can vote for him in November if he wins the nomination, but he will always be welcome at my table if he's hungry."

/Mr Lynn

Re: Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

JLan — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 11:05:33 -0000

"As A Navy you know that -If your Grandfather was an Admiral, Your Father was an Admiral, You finished Annapolis, you Mother plays brdge with ALL the Navy Wifes in Coronado and were a genuine war hero... You would be more than a Commander when you retired."

McCain was more than a commander when he retired: he retired as a Captain.

As for "cannot be trusted"...what makes you think that Mitt Romney can be trusted? I'm not entirely sure where this rediculous stuff is coming from.

Re: Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

Rovin — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 10:13:40 -0000

Just for the record Mr. Lynn-------Bob Dole NEVER led Bill Clinton in the polls and had Ross Perot to contend with to boot. Who's leading Clinton and Obama this time? And who is behind both of these democratic candidates by double digits?

Re: Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

Immolate — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 08:33:50 -0000

Crashing a plane is only an issue if there is evidence that the pilot was at fault.

I've heard the "meme" that being a pilot or a member of the service doesn't make one a hero a lot over the past few days, and it is true, but John McCain is not a hero because he served. He is a hero because of what he did while a POW.

- 10/26/67 shot down while flying an A4 Skyhawk on a 20-plane mission to Hanoi by an SA2 missile while pulling up after dropping his bombs.
- broke both arms and one leg and landed in Truc Bach Lake in Hanoi where he was pulled from the water by angry locals and beaten, shoulder crushed and bayoneted in the foot and abdomen.
- wasn't given medical treatment until 2 days later when they found out he was son of a navy admiral.
- 12/67 after hospitalization, transferred to POW camp in Hanoi and put in a cell with Bud Day who won medal of honor. Bud and other prisoner nursed McCain to keep him from dying.
- 3/68 McCain put in solitary confinement where he would remain for two years.
- 7/68 McCain's father made CINCPAC and McCain offered a chance to be released. McCain refused on grounds that military CoC requires first prisoners captured to be first released.
- 8/68 Vietnamese began torture regimen on McCain. After four days of brutality and a failed suicide attempt, McCain broke and signed a confession saying that he was a "black criminal" and an "air pirate". McCain retained sufficient state of mind to use quirky language and syntax to signal that the confession was coersed.
- 8/68 after refusing to sign a second confession, torture began anew although it was less intense.
- when forced to reveal names of his squadron member, gave names of Packers offensive line.
- refused to meet with visiting anti-war groups.
- 12/69 McCain transferred to Hanoi Hilton.
- 3/15/73 McCain released as a result of Paris Peace Accords.

So essentially, John McCain gave up five years of his life to a hellhole that you and I would be hard-put to imagine on the principle that he would not accept a gesture of grace ahead of his fellow prisoners. McCain did not have any reason to believe that he would survive his imprisonment or ever be released. You could argue that he was just following the rules, and he was, but he would not have been stood against the wall by the Navy if he'd accepted the offer.

I didn't vote for McCain, and I'm not sure I can vote for him in November if he wins the nomination, but he will always be welcome at my table if he's hungry.

Re: Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

CDR_M — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 07:03:21 -0000

I cannot believe that people are actually saying some of this stuff about McCain's service. Crikey, planes crashed a lot more back in the day than they do now. With NATOPS manuals, ORM and CRM training, Naval Aviation has become a lot safer than back then. Blaming him for the Forrestal fire strains the gray membrane. McCain attained the rank of Captain and you don't make that rank being a knucklehead. Focus on the political side, that's where the real issues are. The fact that Obama used McCain as an example that liberal policies work in their debate last night is far more damaging.

Re: Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

SwabJockey05 — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 06:26:39 -0000

Should have mentioned this disclaimer: This swabbie crashed a tax-payer funded plane as well. Hope my shipmates don't hold it against me since the the cost was less than 10 Million...honest ;>

You guys REALLY believe the "polls" that say McCain can beat Hildabeast or the Dope? Why do you think the lefties and the MSM want McCain to be the Repub candidate? So a Repub gets in the WH? You must be "Three Sheets to the Wind"...stop bogarting the Grog, leave a little of that for your shipmates...we're gonna need it.

Re: Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

SwabJockey05 — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 06:15:29 -0000

Some of the best men I've know have crashed planes...some of the worst have too.
Two of my good friends are in a watery grave…probably still strapped in their planes.

Captain's right. Irrelevant to the candidate. Funny how the usual lefty trolls come out of the woodwork to "defend" McCain. I'm old enough to remember that these are the same “fellow travelers” who disparaged Bush Sr.

The lefties who compare Jon Kary's to McCain have no idea how foolish they seem to those of us who have been involved in Combat Operations. Kary and his minions trumpeted the “fact” that he was a war hero. McCain, a real war hero, doesn’t NEED TO. I’ve met more than a few bona fide, war heroes…none of them ever trumpet their “war hero status”. Judging from the fact that the lefty cowards keep drooling over Kary’s war hero claim, their intended audience must be impressed by it. Real men, those....

As is the case for every human endeavor, not all “service” is equal. Even when the service is conducted in an HONORABLE manner. Kary’s dishonorable behavior after his Navy service speaks for itself.

Re: Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

sanssoucy — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 06:10:47 -0000

Even Chuck Yeager didn't bat .1000 as far as always returning to base with an intact airplane.

Anybody think *he's* a sucky pilot?

Re: Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

DJ Elliott — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 06:02:24 -0000

The film from the Plat camera was used for DC training thruout my Navy Career. Nine 1000lb bombs went off on the Forestfire that day...

Re: Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

ERNurse — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 05:09:52 -0000

I'm not a McCain supporter, but I grew up around Naval Air.

This attack is really, really stupid.

I can tell you by watching the Naval Air scene years ago (Dad was in Naval Air) that you do NOT make Commander, Air Group by screwing up, and certainly not by pranging a bunch of airplanes.

Romney ought to be drilled in the butt for this. He's just as bad as McCain. God help this country if this is the best the GOP can come up with.

Dear GOP: Screw you. I'm going independent.

Re: Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

herddog505 — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 05:07:39 -0000

LOL! I'd like to see THAT motto posted over the cockpit door of the next 737 I get on!

Re: Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

herddog505 — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 05:05:46 -0000

Splitting hairs with you: I don't think anybody denigrated John Kerry's service: they denigrated John Kerry's STORIES of his service, some of which seemed to be exagerations if not outright fabrications ("Seared in my memory"). Further, a lot of people - including me - wonder about the circumstances under which he left the service and why he STILL will not release his military records. Finally, it rather sticks in the craw to have a man who made a name for himself smearing his fellow GI's and hobnobbing with the enemy try to pass himself off as a war hero.

Re: Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

HongKongFluie von AH_C — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 03:30:29 -0000

Concur. Aviation skills are irrelevant to POTUS skills. Talking about them aside from a historical POV is pointless

Re: Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

Sailfish — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 01:11:11 -0000

With all the animus I hear and read from many, if not most, of the Conservative punditry (The Corner, Hannity, Rush, Coulter, et. al.) towards McCain, I'm beginning to wonder if "they protest too much". From my bird's eye view, neither Romney nor McCain can claim the "Conservative" banner without qualifying it with a 15 minutes recital of "that was then, this is now" rationalizations.

The thing is, if I'm not mistaken, all of the above anti-McCain folks were anti-McCain/Pro-Bush folks back in 2000 which probably helped elect Bush. There's no way of proving this hypothetical but I could make a case that had McCain been nominated and elected back in 2000, al Qaeda may very well have been deterred from the WTC terrorist attack; primarily because their benefactors would have no misconceptions as to what a President McCain would have done in response. Not to put too fine of a point on it but their opinions today mean a whole lot less today than they did in 2000 and with these scurrilous attacks on McCain military service (by those who have not served, btw), I've pretty much decided that McCain will get my vote just out of spite.

A little off-topic but CNN quoted Romney stating:

'McCain's decision to level the timetable charge during the Florida primary before Romney could rebut it "was reminiscent of the Nixon era," Romney said.'

Listen, I'm not Nixon apologist but I just find it a little odd that a Republican would be preaching the Dem narrative. I mean, it isn't that the Democrats don't have their own less than stellar past presidents that he could have chosen from instead. For example, considering the LBJ "Daisy" ad against Goldwater, he could have been on solid ground to have stated that it "was reminiscent of the Johnsonian era", no?

Re: Dumb Attack-McCain Meme. Part 1. Hopefully, Part Last.

Andy Johnson — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 00:15:30 -0000

I agree. Usually, a hero is someone who does something that if he hadn't done it nobody would have said anything or noticed.

McCain became a hero when he refused to take the early release because he was an admirals son.

He lost it when he didn't visit the guy who nursed him in the Hanoi Hilton. McCain has broken arms and broken legs... Somebody fed him and cleaned up his poop... You'd think McCain would have that guy standing at his side.... I do not recall ever reading that McCain looked him up for a "Thank You"... (My buddy who has a Vietnam CMH noted that tidbit as his reason for opposing McCain)...