Captain's Quarters Comments - Latest Comments in Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

Re: Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

Trochilus — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:22:13 -0000

Oh really?

Then perhaps you can explain why ABC News asked her if Patty Solis Doyle, as the only Latina campaign manager, was being scapegoated? Was ABC just pimping for Matt Drudge?

And, did you listen to Hillary's ridiculous answer? Watch her face. Watch her eyes drop as she is grasping for a logical explanation. Heh.

"There's just too much to be done .." . . . and . . . " .. we've got to get more help"?

And then the odd statement that Patty Solis Doyle will be "deeply involved in the campaign going forward, and she always has been for 16 years."

Incidentally, you may claim people don't know, but there are apparently some very important folks (i.e., Super-Delegate important) in the Hispanic community who did notice the "scapegoating" of Patty Solis Doyle. Oh, but you probably believe that Salon is pimping for Drudge, too!

Whatever Hillary's real reason for the replacement, it was not just because they needed more help! And replacing her with Maggie Williams, whose role in Whitewater, etc., does raise questions about what the public signal from the campaign was supposed to be. Democrats always play "identity" politics. It's a little like reading old Kremlin photos!

Re: Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

always_right — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:28:47 -0000

Scott Ott rarely disappoints. Another classic hit.

Re: Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

Bogey — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:05:04 -0000

to be fair, I don't think black liberals are held in contempt.

all liberals are held in contempt.

what's infuriating to an outside observer is that if you are black but somehow not liberal, it's then decided you are not "black". but merely an Oreo.

which is preposterous.

but this is slowly changing.

Re: Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

Bogey — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:02:01 -0000

yes he has.

but his percentage of the white vote in Southern states has been very small. (he's won because of heavy black vote)

and the white hayseeds in out of way places like Colorado and Maine and Nebraska.. they seem to be far less racist than their redneck and white working class cousins.

that's why it's critical for Obama (as you yourself admit) to win a "big state".

Re: Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

njcommuter — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:59:02 -0000

Let us apply the word cow to people only as a verb, as in "The Left's highest aspiration is to be cowed by our enemies."

Re: Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

Phil Weingart — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:38:58 -0000

How many different ways are there to say "They're lazy?"

Is it possible that some groups have the reputation of being lazy because... they're disproportionately lazier than other groups?

Go read Thomas Sowell's "The Economics and Politics of Race," and comment on this when you've finished.

(Unrelated to this topic, please visit my political blog, "Plumb Bob Blog: Squaring the Culture," at http://www.plumbbobblog.com. Thanks.)

Re: Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

Phil Weingart — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:28:38 -0000

Name a leadership position in the House that's held by a black person.

Next -- and here's a truly relevant statistic -- give me the percentage of minorities holding positions in Democrat administrations compared to their percentage of the party nationally. And then let's see the same statistic for the Republican party. How much do you want to bet me that blacks are OVERrepresented in the Republican party, and UNDERrepresented in the Democratic party, and that the disparity increases the higher you go in the hierarchy?

And finally, you're likely to have an Afro-American nominee BECAUSE he's black. Have you noticed what percentage of black voters are voting for Obama? You think that's because they like his policies, when you can't fit a business card between his and Clinton's position on any issue?

And how far do you suppose a young, white politician with Obama's record would have gotten in this race? John Kennedy was a Kenneday; Dan Quayle actually achieved something in the Senate. What's Obama's claim to fame?

Obama has a chance at the nomination because of racism in the Democratic party.

I live in the same world you do, Teresa. I just see it a lot better than you.

Re: Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

Steve Z — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:15:05 -0000

Susan Estrich might be onto something here. In big-state PRIMARIES without a heavy African-American population, polls have tended to over-estimate Obama's support, meaning that there might be some people telling pollsters that they plan to vote for Obama in order to sound "politically correct", but don't actually vote for him. This wouldn't be widespread racism or feigned political correctness, but it only takes about 10% (or maybe 50 to 100 people in the average poll sample) to lie to a pollster to throw the results off.

After all, Mitt Romney's Mormon religion was a handicap in the Republican race. Although the vast majority of Christian Republican voters (probably over 80%) would vote for a Mormon if they considered him the best candidate on issues, there is a minority fringe in some churches that considers Mormonism a "cult" and would never vote for a Mormon, and this probably was reflected in general-election polls showing Romney losing to the Democrats, and led Republican voters to choose a more electable candidate.

So far, Clinton has won 12 state primaries, Obama has won 7. Even if Obama wins VA and MD (both of which have heavy African-American populations), he still trails in primaries 12 to 9. Obama has won 9 state caucuses, Clinton only one. Why does Obama do so well in caucuses, but have trouble against Clinton in primaries?

Part of the reason may be the low turnout at caucuses, and Obama's campaign style of making long, intensely hopeful yet vague speeches might earn him enough dreamy-eyed hard-core supporters to win a state caucus without convincing the overall electorate.

But if Estrich is right, there may be another reason why Obama does so well at caucuses.
Caucus-goers have to defend their candidate publicly in debates with supporters of other candidates for hours. If race and gender become issues at Democrat caucuses, some Hillary supporters may be accused of racism during caucus debates, and be pressured to cross over to Obama to avoid being considered racist by their friends and neighbors at a caucus. Primary voters have no such fear, and can privately vote for Hillary without disclosing their vote to others.

Is political correctness and caucus-goers' fear of being perceived as racist by their friends and neighbors giving Obama an advantage in caucus states, which overstates his support among the wider electorate? If any commenters here have voted in Democrat caucuses, their opinions would be interesting...

Re: Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

TJM — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 10:43:35 -0000

I am a former Dem. When I learned to read and think for myself I registered as a Republican because they do not allow you to register as an Independent in Illinois. By the way, I have heard the "N" word with great frequency over the years in the Dem bastions of Chicago and Boston but rarely in the "racist" South. What I find fascinating about Estrich is she wrote a column 2 years ago exhorting the Clintoons to get off the national stage and give the Dem Party some pure air. Now she's flipped and wants the Hillster as the Dem Party's nominee. Talk about a flip-flopper.

Re: Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

Teresa — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 09:39:03 -0000

And, yet, Obama has won over and over in red states, blue states, west
coast states, southern states, east coast states....

Re: Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

Teresa — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 09:37:42 -0000

Up above we are told that Democrats hold black conservatives in contempt,
but somehow it is different for you to hold black liberals in contempt?

Just trying to understand the rules here.

Re: Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

Teresa — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 09:35:19 -0000

Yes! It is amazing how the exact same words are used over and over all
around the world.

Re: Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

Teresa — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 09:34:21 -0000

Yes... that is why many leadership positions in the house are now held
by African-Americans and why we are likely to have an African-American
as the nominee -- because Democrats show racism at the top.

What bizzaro world do you live in?

Re: Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

Bogey — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 09:32:19 -0000

of course it's alive and well in the Dem Party.
look at the voting patterns in Democratic primaries.

Billy Joe Jim Bob and Ricky Bobby won't vote for a black man (of course there are tons more BJJBobs and Ricky Bobbys who are Republican)

but in urban areas.... Johny Trailer Park White trash won't vote for a black guy either, and of course Joey Goombah from Jeysey or Philly won't be voting for a black guy either.

Re: Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

Teresa — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 09:31:57 -0000

That is a ridiculous meme being pushed by Drudge. Frankly, until Drudge started screaming about her being a Latina, how many people even knew someone named Patty Solis Doyle was? I didn't and I am a political junkie and a Dem. Drudge is just trying to race bait.

Re: Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

NAFTALI — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 07:55:15 -0000

When reading Novak, I recommend Morton's Iodized salt, just a pinch between your cheek and gum. The GOP is hoping (pretend this is italicized) for some scenario in which they win. They are hoping Obama says something or does something so outrageous (breathing doesn't count) that GOPers come out and vote. And this is only because their own nominee is among the billions on the planet less charismatic than Obama. Too bad there isn't a cabinet post for Designated Speaker. Sure could have used one the last eight years.

Re: Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

123MarkW — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 07:42:59 -0000

To be "officially black" you have to be a liberal Democrat.

Anyone else isn't really black. I know this, because Jesse Jackson said so.

Re: Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

123MarkW — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 07:41:00 -0000

Ah yes, the old, you have to read between the lines to find the super secret real meaning of what he wrote argument.

I once argued with a young lady who also happened to be black. She declared that all whites are racist. The only difference between them is that some are better at hiding it then others, an if you search hard enough, you can always find evidence to prove it.

Funny anecdote. Shortly after this, a friend of hers came up to apologize for her behaviour. He said he couldn't understand her behavior. According to him, when she was among friends, she never acted that way. I asked him if all of her friends were black. He admitted that they were.

Enough said.

If you look hard enough for what is not there, you will always find it.

Re: Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

Tee Ship — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 07:38:16 -0000

Does referring to her as "the beast" constitute sexism too?

Re: Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

Bogey — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 03:45:02 -0000

well, because by looking at her, that's the first thing I think of. (though I recognize by using such language you are immediately in a "no win" situation (all downside, no upside)

however , I am sure one could come up with equally pejorative names by looking at some ugly old geezers on the male side.

and perhaps people SHOULD, if they are going to use the old cow remark.

Re: Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

Bogey — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 03:41:56 -0000

this is a very simplistic way of looking at it.

There is something to be said about pride (from standpoint of blacks who finally have a very national, very legitimate candidate, who is an example of their best qualities and their progress? highly intelligent, articulate and intelligent, and not a race baiter)

Obama's life story is very compelling and inspirational to just about anyone who's not an outright racist. I'm not saying that's enough to vote for him, but to ignore that fact and reduce it to the above is embarrassing.

Re: Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

Bogey — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 03:38:36 -0000

I'm curious how history will judge Condi.

the conventional wisdom now is that she certainly allowed herself to get pushed around bureaucratically and otherwise by Dick and Rumsfeld.

Rumsfeld would pointedly ignore her at times during meetings and other very sexist and condescending slights.

of course, Rumsfeld and Cheney are masters at the bureaucratic "game".
she was up against the best.

but in the end, she also clearly "won".

Alas, at a very tremendous cost to the country.

Re: Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

Bogey — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 03:32:26 -0000

pure fantasy.

No Republican can ever win without the South. They're effectively a regional, "southern" party these days anyways.

the day Billy Joe Jim Bob and Ricky Bobby vote for a black man or woman is the day I will descent unto hell with ice skates.

Re: Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

Bogey — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 03:28:41 -0000

"........think, rather, that too many people have seen media images of young black men in gangs, misbehaving, and are reacting to the rehearsed images...."

this is politically correct horseshit that Chris Rock often completely destroys in his comedy shows.

and it's because he's black he can stand up to it and completely demolish it.

I believe he did a skit once about being in front of an ATM and watching out for some shady characters looking to rob him.

He said.. I'm not scare of the media... I'm scared of ".............s"

Re: Estrich: Who'd Have Thought The Party Of Identity Politics Has Racists?

Bogey — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 03:23:37 -0000

well she is an old cow.

just like some geezer males could be categorized as old stubborn bulls.

or make it even more pejorative.