Captain's Quarters Comments - Latest Comments in Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

Re: Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

chaking — Fri, 14 Dec 2007 00:56:49 -0000

What you're missing here is that everyone we get doesn't know the things we think they do. If we always got the right guy, the responsible person, then sure torture might work. But when half the time we get some numbnut that knows nothing but has to lie and say he does to stop the torture, that's where it doesn't work.

If we have to torture someone to get an answer to a question, then apparently we don't know the answer right? So how the hell do we know it's accurate... We don't, simple as that, and we can never be sure it is...

Re: Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

chaking — Fri, 14 Dec 2007 00:47:44 -0000

applause to BurfordHolly --- funny

Re: Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

herddog505 — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 14:38:49 -0000

Obviously not much point in continuing, but I'll give it one last try. Please try hard to understand the difference between "disagreement" and "stifling free speech", will you? As it happens, I DO support free speech for all Americans within the generous bounds of our legal tradition; I don't support the right to shout "FIRE!" in a crowded theatre, for example. If you look carefully at my posts - ALL the posts I've ever made here at CQ - you won't find me espousing prior restraint on free speech or locking people up for speaking their mind. I didn't tell you to shut up (though heavens knows that it crossed my mind more than once); I haven't advocated making Schieffer shut up. Again, please try hard to see the difference.

One last note:

"sarcasm" - most definitely

"contempt" - unquestionably

"condescending air of superiority" - should be "condescending air of undoubted and well-demonstrated superiority". You could also add "arrogance".

"hypocrisy" - not sure where I've demonstrated hypocrisy (outside your own twisted little mind, that is), but I've found that libs like throwing that slur around almost as much as they like calling people who don't agree with them nazis or fascists.

"duly noted" - by whom? If by you, then give yourself a kewpie doll for spotting the obvious.

Oh, well...

Re: Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

middle_american2 — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:05:33 -0000

docjim,

I guess you'd have us believe your comment of "There's a line between having an open society and handing propaganda victories to the enemy, and Schieffer and his ilk routinely cross it." was intended to encourage a free and open debate in our "open society". <-- certainly no cliches employed here.

[...]exactly which American "value"... <-- certainly no usage of tired cliches by you sir.

"Will C-BS and the other MSM outlets all run Special Reports entitled, "America: We're Evil and You SHOULD Hate Us for It" or "America: Everything Bad We've Ever Done and Why You SHOULD Hate Us for It"?" <-- I'm certainly pleased to see you refrain from the usage of tired cliches.

Mr Schieffer and I say things with which you disagree therefor he and I are giving aid and comfort to the enemy and should consider what damage we are doing to our "national image". <--No cliches ever employed by docjim that's for certain!

It is apparent you support Freedom of speech for all Americans, that is unless the speaker dares to espouse opinions different that docjims!

According to your comments, IF we disagree with you we are "handing propaganda victories" to OUR enemies and we are damaging our "national image". <--No one can ever accuse you of employing "tired cliches" now can they Sir?

Your sarcasm, contempt, condescending air of superiority and hypocrisy are duly noted sir.

Re: Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

mmpost — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:33:02 -0000

My dad worked for Air Force intelligence back in the 70's. Recently, I talked to him about this torture issue. Bottom line, when ANY U.S. agent is compromised, it is assumed that all information known to that agent is also compromised, for torture by trained professionals almost always works.

So, please no more arguments that torture does not work. That is just hogwash.

Re: Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

BurfordHolly — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:06:42 -0000

Video - who IS this guy?

http://www.crooksandliars.c...

Re: Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

herddog505 — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:02:06 -0000

I'm sorry; you had a point? All I see is tired cliches that basically add up to, "It's all our fault they hate us!" Oh, and the obligatory paranoid rant about "stifling dissent" and "thought police". But if it makes you feel better:

We are so NOT a colonial power!!!

We are so a nice country and people should like us!!!

We are so NOT like our enemies!!!

Happy now?

I'm genuinely curious: who has tried to stifle your dissent? Did Cap'n Ed delete or alter some of your posts? Did somebody else demand that he do so, because I haven't? Did I or anybody else tell you to shut up and threaten you if you didn't? What "thought police" have showed up at your door? Has the FBI called your house and warned you against posting your opinions here at CQ or anywhere else?

It seems clear to me that, like many libs, you are so insecure and paranoid that you automatically regard ANY criticism leveled at you and your (ahem) ideas to be clear evidence of some deep conspiracy to get you. Either that or it simply makes you feel important to imagine that you're the target of an Orwellian machine. Big, brave middle_american2, bearding O'Brien in his den in MiniLuv. I'll bet a courageous patriot like you isn't one little bit afraid of Room 101, eh?

Here's a tip: when people don't fall all over themselves to agree with everything you say, or at least admit that your awesome logic and rhetorical skills have left them crushed and unable to even try to answer your unassailable arguments, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are out to stifle you. It may simply mean that they think you're full of s*** and not worth bothering with.

Incidentally, it is impossible to refute "opinions". I can offer competing opinions or even facts that undercut your opinions, but I can't refute your beliefs any more than I could refute somebody's religious beliefs. I can shake my head and wonder how in the hell you believe the garbage that you espouse, but I can't refute it. The term I've seen others use is "truth to fantasy", and I've learned that it just doesn't work.

So have fun, you maverick renegade! And don't let the black helicopters get you.

Re: Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

BurfordHolly — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:27:21 -0000

Note he was there to help catch the guy, but didn't ship out with him nor was he part of the interrogation team. So we're left to wonder, who trotted out this guy?

Re: Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

middle_american2 — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:08:57 -0000

docjim,

Your response was quite predictable and completely as expected! What else could you do other than attack the messenger when you found yourself totally lacking the ability (or desire really) to refute the opinions I express?

Attack the messenger it's what those of your mind set do so well!
Please feel free to continue your expressions of hated and contempt for your fellow countrymen who dare express opinions you find disagreeable. (Is this a GREAT country or what?)

Thank you Sir for unwittingly substantiating my point with your '/sarcasm and contempt' !

I await your next attack further substantiating my point, sir!

Respectfully,

middle_american2

Re: Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

Heather — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:15:39 -0000

The public needs to know, because it is being done in THEIR names!

For Dan,
Heather

Re: Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

Heather — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:12:09 -0000

Thank you !

My husband was a Vietnam vet and POW, who was tortured by his North Vietnamese captors. He suffered from his injuries for over thirty years, until his fatal heart attack two years ago.

Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is doing it to who.

For Dan,
Heather

Re: Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

herddog505 — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:03:02 -0000

"Colonialism"

"Stifle dissent"

"Become like our enemies"

"Silence those with different viewpoints"

"Everybody loved us after 9-11"

"Thought police"

Good heavens, you're a walking cliche! Or a joke. Not sure which.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to call the Super Secret Ultra-Right Wing Christian Conservative Thought Police to have them secretly arrest you and spirit you away to one of our super secret foreign detention centers for some serious waterboarding because you dared to disagree with me. Don't try to run, by the way: we've tapped all your phone calls and we know about your secret hideaway in your parents' basement.

/sarcasm and contempt

Re: Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

BurfordHolly — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:46:36 -0000

When they questioned the meatball and checked out his stories they concluded his stories were nonsense.

Interestingly the guy who claimed his penis was getting sliced every month says that they kept him just to sign accusations implicating people he'd never heard of.

Doctor Stranglove:
General Jack D. Ripper: Were you ever a prisoner of war?
Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Well, yes I was, matter of fact, Jack, I was.
General Jack D. Ripper: Did they torture you?
Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Uh, yes they did. I was tortured by the Japanese, Jack, if you must know; not a pretty story.
General Jack D. Ripper: Well, what happened?
Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Oh, well, I don't know, Jack, difficult to think of under these conditions; but, well, what happened was they got me on the old Rangoon-Ichinawa railway. I was laying train lines for the bloody Japanese puff-puff's.
General Jack D. Ripper: No, I mean when they tortured you did you talk?
Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Ah, oh, no... well, I don't think they wanted me to talk really. I don't think they wanted me to say anything. It was just their way of having a bit of fun, the swines. Strange thing is they make such bloody good cameras.

Re: Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

BurfordHolly — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:34:42 -0000

Not dead, but other people have died under questioning, which is another issue entirely.

You're just not following my train of thought regards the point of getting the point of getting a conviction. Wow law enforcement is in great shape when the official line is that we must NOT get convictions.

You only need to convict on ONE count for anything he bragged about on his videos. Once he's convicted, he belongs to the man. No habeas, limited access to attorneys, no due process etc etc.

The alternative is overturning the entire legal system just to get one guy and cover W's butt.

Re: Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

jr565 — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:28:26 -0000

what if the investigators actually investigate the claims of those being waterboardsed to determine if their accounts are accurate? Are you suggsting that that was n't in fact done. If you reference the article that you cited about the mentally challenged guy being tortured it notes taht every time he said anything, agents went scurrying all around trying to find out if the sotry was accurate. That knid of sounds like the cross referencing info part of the mix. So noone is simply being waterboarded because we want to get some confession. If we interrogate a khaelleid sheik mohammad (and not torture him) we then have people cross reference the story to see if its accurate

Re: Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

BurfordHolly — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:15:21 -0000

>For example, who has been conducting oversite
>at Walter Reed for the last 20 years?

You know, I thought that did not smell quite right.

".................Walter Reed Army Medical Center is run by the Army, not the VA. Mark Kleiman, Professor of Public Policy at UCLA, points to the misdirection put forth by Republicans, "[h]elped by some sloppy journalists, [to encourage] the widespread belief that Walter Reed is part of the Veterans Administration—and its mismanagement is therefore another piece of evidence in their brief against 'big government', and, of course, 'socialized medicine.'"

"In an example of this misdirection, President Bush recently announced a federal investigation into both military medical care and VA medical care in the wake of the scandal," Kleiman writes.

"But of course Walter Reed is run by the Army, with the help of those private contractors Republicans love because they're so efficient (and so generous at campaign season). As for the VA medical system—it did used to be terrible," Kleiman writes. "But it was fixed under President Clinton, and now, as the Monthly reported in 2005 has the best quality and customer-satisfaction numbers in the entire health-care system........."

Re: Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

jr565 — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:12:49 -0000

Yet Khallid isn't dead. So therefore the argument that that's how you get a corpse holds no water..
Good first step is to convict him of something? How long will that take? Are the tapes admissable? Does Khallid and his lawyers have a right to look at all the evidence against him even if its top secret?
Also, as far as holding HItler in a mental hospital, how is that different than holding someone for the duration of the war? Would holding Hitler in a mental hospital conform to Geneva. Don't think that Geneva is big on humiliating those who have been captured, and holding someone in a mental hospital is certainly humiliating. How heartless of you. I think this country would have lost our souls were we to resort to such barbarity.
As far as going hitech, does Khallid need to have his lawyer present when interrogations are going on? We all know that polygraphs are not conclusive, especially in a court of law, and wouldn’t his lawyer argue that any confession received was because he was brow beaten by law enforcement? What if he fails his polygraph test, does he then clam up and not have to say anymore, or can we then interrogate him further? What if, after a long trial where, because he has due process rights he doesn’t reveal anything to the cops and some lawyer puts the case in jeapordy, because of some legal loophole, or mishandling of evidence?

Re: Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

Derek — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:52:47 -0000

As is your blissful ignorance.

Re: Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

BurfordHolly — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:36:37 -0000

And that goes back to the unspoken question - is this about getting real information, or simply about getting phony confessions for propaganda?

Our POWs in Vietnam were tortured for years, not because they had info, but to make them sign absurd confessions. The Russians and others all had the same goal - fake confessions for propaganda use.

If you're looking for the truth, a serious team of investigators fact checking and cross referencing info has to be part of the mix. A couple of guys roughing up someone in the basement and faxing the confession to the PR department shows the dismantling of any real anti-terrorism program.

Re: Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

BurfordHolly — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:22:40 -0000

I'll assume you don't mean start torturing the second you catch him, since that's how you get a corpse and no info.

Well a good first step is to convict him of something, and considering KSM had made a lot of videos bragging about his crimes, that's a slam dunk. Then you would avoid suspending habeas, and kicking that hornets' nest.

In WW2, one plan floated was to catch and hold Hitler in Saint Elizabeth's mental hospital (here John Hinkley Jr. is) as a symbol Nazi defeat. I don't know if anything similar has been considered for people like KSM.

But as far as questioning, considering this is the biggest catch they ever made, I'd go high tech. You'd get a lot more out of using polygraphs and even the new PET scan techniques than flogging the guy.

Re: Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

middle_american2 — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:17:44 -0000

docjim,

Sir, thankfully the rest of the civilized world does indeed share our values; it is the extremes, the fanatics who oppose us.

How quickly and conveniently you forget how the entirety of the civilized world stood behind us in the immediate aftermath of 911! The support for our attack on the Taliban in Afghanistan was vast and overwhelming among our countrymen (on both sides of the political spectrum) as well as among the entirely of the civilized world. You are as wrong as you are certain on this point!

You asked "(exactly which American "value" is it that really pisses bin Laden off, by the way?) The answer is our propensity for colonialism, just as our forefathers resented foreign powers attempting to impose their will upon us.

Now am I 'blaming America first" as you would propose (in order to stifle dissent) NO...adamantly NO I am not blaming America first....I am simply answering a question you put to me sir. While I do not expect you to accept my response as a sincere answer to the question you posed, I fully expect more of the same "Blame America first" "Terrorist sympathizer" etc babble that emanates from those of your mindset against anyone who dares to express an opposing viewpoint.

The only whining that I see comes from you and those of your mindset against our national media (MSM to you professional ‘victims’ on the extreme right) and the only ones interested in 'scoring partisan points' are the those like yourself who express hatred for their countrymen for daring to believe differently than you, for daring to express opinions different from yours.

IF and when we become like our enemies (accepting their tactics as our own) in our pursuit of them...they will have won a victory over us that they could never win without our active participation, without our adapting their evil tactics as our own, sir!

That is my opinion and nothing more sir, and I await the 'thought police' that many of your mindset would have scoop up those who of us who dare to believe differently than do you who would call us 'those who would blame America first" or "terrorist sympathizers". (Again in order to stifle debate and silence those with different viewpoints.)

Your attempts to stifle debate and dissent will always fail until your ‘thought police’ are successful in rounding up the roughly half of your fellow countrymen who dare to believe differently than do you sir.

Re: Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

jr565 — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:35:49 -0000

Nice diversion. Actually, not eventhat nice.We don't' always have to restort to interrogation to get info. But we''re not talking about that, and noone issaying we should torture everyone, or even interrogate everyone for every reason at any and all times.

But back to the subject:
My question was, what if the person caught is a Khallid sheik mohammad who we know is not innocent, and who we know has an incredible amount of intel about past plots and future plots as well as knowledge of those who will carry it out.

Re: Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

Swede — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:27:21 -0000

I would point you to the thread up above concerning the retired CIA guy who not only says waterboarding works, he gives us how fast it works.

Re: Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

po — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:14:10 -0000

So, apparently to many here the GWOT is really nothing more than a race to the bottom of human morality. Just because "they" do it, doesn't mean we should. Had the CIA, FBI, DOD and other been doing their job before 9/11, there would have been no need for catch-up and torture, as if there is ever a need to torture. After 9/11, when all the CIA and FBI folks who'd been beating the drum finally got a listen, there was no need for it then. No, it was just easy and this administration is all for taking the easy way out.

BTW, No one has offered any proof that torture works. In fact all of the evidence states the contrary. Even you CIA hero doesn't know if it works, he's just been told (by who I wonder) that it did. Of course, there's conflicting evidence on this as the guy tortured was probably a mental case with little real information. That's never stopped a headline, though, has it?

So, you keep running that race. The terrorists, however, have already won.

Re: Is Waterboarding Torture Or Necessity? Yes

Swede — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:00:49 -0000

See how quickly the Guardian and Buford T. Justice are to believe a terrorist?

Surprising, I know. Who saw it coming?

The Guardian and Burford, protecting terrorist pecker since 2001.