I'm always amazed at those people who clamor for federal funds for hEsc research as if that were the only funding source. And that without it, there will be no research at all. I'm reminded of one of Rush Limbaugh's measure of being a left winger "AIDS is spread by lack of Federal funding". Lefties scream that if I'm against federal funding for education, then, in their world , I'm against education. If I'm against the unconstitutional agricultural and farm subsidies than I'm against farming. Right. I'm for ignorance and I'm against eating. What vapid thinking exists on the left. When you're a hammer, the whole world is a nail. When you're a lefty, the world can only exist by government programs, tax increases,regulations and regulators.
DayTrader
· 2 years ago
The only reason this whole issue existed at all is simply the fact that you could patent something developed from the embryo version and you could not from the adult version.
Quirks in the law and also not wanting to call embryos human because of impacts on Roe v Wade.
jpm100
· 2 years ago
There are two negatives to embryonic stem cells that is often never mentioned. Since they are typically not from the intended recipient, they can be rejected by the recipient's immune system. This requires the use of anti-rejection drugs which carry substantial negative effects. Secondly, they often exhibit uncontrolled, tumorous growth. And preventing such growth was akin to curing cancer.
I always felt that coaxing adult stem cells into becoming pluripotent was the lower technical hurdle. And adult cells from the intended recipient will not require anti-rejection drugs. Hopefully cells from this approach won't exhibit tumorous growth either.
That being said, I'm sure this will be rejected vehemently or flat out ignored. HESC creates a moral justification for abortion. It also recruits people who have loved ones with illnesses into this camp as well. So I don't expect the debate to be over for a long time.
docjim505
· 2 years ago
jpm100: I'm sure this will be rejected vehemently or flat out ignored. HESC creates a moral justification for abortion. It also recruits people who have loved ones with illnesses into this camp as well. So I don't expect the debate to be over for a long time.
Exactly. Plus, there are all those politicians (I believe Tom Harkin was quite vocal) who claimed that "the debate is over" and that ONLY human embryonic stem cells offered ANY promise of helping cure various diseases. They certainly aren't going to rush to admit that they were wrong.
hunter
· 2 years ago
And Tom Harkin is a famouns combat pilot and we should listen to him. He even flew Keery into Cambodia, if I recall, so we should listen to them both.
Otter
· 2 years ago
...You Almost had me with that one.
Larry
· 2 years ago
Adult stem cell reseach has actually produced therapies, hEsc has not. Where do you think the private investment has been going. The hEsc researchers were whining for government funds because private money dried up. The pro-abortion crowd, isn't going to let this go, though it's going to be harder to justify; Witness R. Alta Charo, a UW-Madison professor of law and bioethics:
"No matter how well this new technique can be used for many of the disease-research and disease-treatment applications foreseen for embryonic stem cell and cloning research, however, calls for criminalization or wholesale de-funding of embryonic stem cell and cloning research are not warranted," Charo adds. "Criminalizing any area of science, as opposed to merely regulating it, would be contrary to the political and constitutional traditions of academic and scientific freedom, as well as the historical spirit of inquiry that characterizes this country."
Mike M.
· 2 years ago
I think that is one of the most frightening quotes I've read in quite some time. "Professor" Charo is essentially saying that scientists should be legally permitted to do absolutely anything they want to, in the name of science!
I don't think Dr. Mengele himself could have phrased it any better than that.
Lydia
· 2 years ago
Mike M. I completely agree. I felt the same, and immediately thought of Dr. Mengele when I read what Prof. Glenn Reynolds at Instapundit had to say on the subject. According to him science should be free and anyone who opposes whatever scientists might care to do is a theocrat. Dr. Mengele deserved the Nobel prize, I guess. Truly frightening. Tried to post a link, but it didn't work. Scroll down at Instapundit to see for yourself.
Otter
· 2 years ago
This is Excellent news. However do not think for an Instant that such a massive breakthrough will put an end to cries for federal funding involving the destruction of embryos. If that program falls by the wayside, it will put in jepoardy other Leftist arguments as well.
'As news of the success by two different research teams spread by e-mail, scientists seemed almost giddy at the likelihood that their field, which for its entire life has been at the center of so much debate, may suddenly become like other areas of biomedical science: appreciated, ****** eligible for federal funding ******** and wide open for new waves of discovery.'
And to think! They did it without federal funding.
clever_hans
· 2 years ago
This sounds encouraging from my non-expert point of view.
Wanna know what conservatives will absolutely not do right now?
Declare the debate is over and slander all who disagree as paid liars.
Let's teach democrats how to conduct real scientific discourse.
Otter
· 2 years ago
but that would involve Honesty, Ethics and Truth, Oh My! (with apologies to Dorothy)
Michael Markowitz
· 2 years ago
"Now both sides have what they want". Were it only so. The left has little interest in the actual merits of hEsc. Their interest is political, as it is in most things. They will pursue any avenue to make it appear that we righties are contemptible, religious kooks who could care less about anyone but ourselves. They will not give up this fight. It feels too good to them.
JohnMcJunkin
· 2 years ago
Amen Mr. Markowitz - it's similar to environmentalism, the goal of which is not to "save the planet" but rather to promote socialism and statism. If you fail at the ballot box, you have to find a different angle.
Rob Misek
· 2 years ago
The unique and living DNA of an embryo proves that it is not part of the mothers body, but a new distinct life growing within it.
Roe vs Wade was in 1973 while DNA fingerprinting wasn't developed until 1989.
Obviously Roe vs Wade is no longer relevant.
Why should only pregnant women be given the choice to murder?
chaos
· 2 years ago
Ever since the stem cell issue came on the scene I was sure that eventually science would advance to a degree where we didn't need to destroy embryos to get stem cells or find new ways to do the same things stem cells do.
Only a few years later, here we are, and scientists seem to be making a new breakthrough every week that makes embryo farming for stem cells unnecessary. I definitely didn't think the progress would be so fast.
Larry
· 2 years ago
Actually, I've been seeing news stories like this, with scientists reporting methods of converting adult cells to pluripotent cells, for the past few years. Remembering how often reporters get science wrong, I've been keeping my fingers crossed. But this one makes it just too many for the reporters to have gotten them all wrong.
always right
· 2 years ago
The point is there ARE responsible scientists quietly, and I am sure, competing with others to achieve this major breakthrough. Without the activitists and actors (Michael J Fox, for example) pulling wools over mos of our eyes.
Irresponsible scientists go along with activists or political hacks for the easy money/funding by exaggerating a crisis. Unfortunately, we have plenty of those too.
jbalmer
· 2 years ago
This stuff is 21st Century Interferon. An endless source of federal grants
Steven Zell
· 2 years ago
One more case where the mass-media jumped on a bandwagon of false hopes to create an appearance of conflict between "science" and morality, in order to portray pro-life Christians as scientifically-ignorant fools, as the media usually do. Remember that horrible misleading ad by Michael J. Fox who claimed that former Senator Jim Talent of Missouri was preventing him from being cured of Parkinson's disease by opposing funding of embryonic stem-cell research, that probably cost Talent re-election, which could have resulted in an evenly split Senate?
As it turns out, true science and morality both point in the same direction, not only due to the recent discoveries announced today, but also due to the fact that the only previous stem-cell therapies that have yielded positive clinical results used adult or umbilical cord-blood stem cells, not embryonic stem cells. Embryonic stem cells are good at growing into babies, but they need guidance from chemicals secreted in the womb--when transplanted outside the womb, without this chemical guidance they become loose cannons, and frequently destructive. This was known last year in scientific circles, but the mass-media lied about it and promoted embryonic stem cells as the "miracle" cure-all for political reasons. There still aren't any cures using embryonic stem cells, but the media won their battle--for a Democrat majority in the Senate, which was the only true goal of their campaign.
The mass media haven't given up with twisting "science" to achieve political ends--Al Gore got a D in Earth Science in college, and a Nobel Peace Prize, and he's trying to convince everyone to pay HIM and his rich cohorts carbon taxes, and send the rest of the world into an energy-poor economic depression, based on a LIE! Most scientists who have studied climate objectively conclude that climate change is due to changes in solar activity and other natural causes, not carbon dioxide, which does have the beneficial effect of increasing plant growth rates and crop yields. The Earth will be greener and more fertile (but not necessarily warmer) if we DON'T limit CO2 emissions, but how many sheeple and Congress-people will follow Al Gore and the mass media into world poverty trying to save ice in Greenland (which was named by the Vikings in medieval times, when it was much warmer than it is now)?
Patrick
· 2 years ago
Golly, you mean that crypto-Christo-fascist and world-class moron Chimpy-McBushitler might have been right about human embryonic stem-cell research after all? If this does pan out, I doubt the left will give up on this particular hobby horse without a fight.
hermie
· 2 years ago
State governments such as California and Illinois have already committed multimillions of taxpayer dollars into embryonic stem cell research. The state income taxes, property taxes, and other 'contributions' will now go towards a now obsolete and impractical program, which will never produce the kinds of results other non-embryonic programs have shown.
Taxpayers were suckered again by the Left.
unclesmrgol
· 2 years ago
I'm a Californian who voted against the embryonic stem cell research initiative. Not only have no advances occurred in the embryonic stem cell arena, the money was essentially privatized, with a small board, immune from politics (and therefore oversight by the People), handing out contracts worth billions of dollars to whatever current grant applicant catches their fancy. A prime example was the $2.6M grant to CHA Regenerative Medicine Institute of Los Angeles, which is the American arm of discredited Korean researcher Kwang-Yul Cha. The grant was eventually turned down by the Institute in the wake of a scandal -- it was not withdrawn by California.
As for me, I'm moving out of this State as soon as I retire; I refuse to have blood on my hands by repaying the estimated $8 billion cost of this program which will come due in a few years.
Maquis
· 2 years ago
I fear most here are right, certain peoples want more cover for deliberate embryo destruction. However, this IS great news, and the blogosphere should be electric, no, nuclear, in it's enthusiasm to share this news! If GWB wants human dignity to be part of his legacy, he can now focus less on standing in front of the embryonic stem cell train, and tout and FUND this new find. The White House should be all over this. We can whine about the MSM, and are right to, but Bush should be first in line to make the world know that we can do this without destroying life.
I'm sure that if he considers this method to be moral/ethical, he will advocate funding for it.
The problem will now turn to assuring that cell lines produced this way are not used for cloning a human identical to the donor for immoral purposes. Growing an entire human being just to harvest organs is the ultimate in slavery, and we now have to consider that aspect of ethics.
Why should the federal government be using tax dollars for any of this. They shouldn't be involved in funding any research. Not their job.
unclesmrgol
· 2 years ago
Explain your position more fully as to why it is "not their job". I can think of several defense-related justifications for this type of research -- the same type of research that led to us landing on the moon or inventing the internet.
hunter
· 2 years ago
From the telegraph to the computer to the internet, the Federal Government ahs been a backer of research. Jefferson funded expoloration on a large scale. This has served us well and I see no reason for it to stop now.
Corsair
· 2 years ago
Research for military advancements(which led to telegraph,computer,internet) directly involved with national defense, I have no problem with. Throwing grants around to every medical study to discover the cure for (insert favorite pc disease) only leads to a welfare state for colleges. Most cures have come about when someone finds that they can make money with a cure(private sector) not just looking for a cure(goverment grant, etc.) They discovered shortly after finding a way to fix polio that there was more money n researching than there is in curing.
hermie
· 2 years ago
What it also boils down to is that abortion providers like Planned Parenthood can't justify trying to make money off of their victims by selling their remains to college research labs, since their 'by products' won't actually be needed.
BJ
· 2 years ago
Sorry, both sides will NOT have what they want: free access to manipulate the human embryo is irrevovably tied to the mindset that such an embryo is not a human being. Another pretext will be found to make it vital that such research be continued. It's not human, so it's OK to experiment on it, and it's surely OK for a woman to "choose" to abort it.
DayTrader
· 2 years ago
Actually others have brought up the point but it needs to be clarified.
Each usage of adult stem cells will be done with cells from the host body needing treatment which lowers the rejection risk to almost zero since it comes from the host.
You are not manufacturing stuff to put on a shelf to use like a medicine or whatever.
The embyronic cell lines were not from abortions or their by products, they were originated from artificial insemination fertility treatments, that is why there are so few of them available.
Adult cells have the advantage that they are more easily converted in that they are part of the mature body structure.
Even if you chose to start from an ESC you have to do thousands of chemical translations to get it to the same point ASC products are when they start to be modified from there.
Some adult stem cell therapies already are in field trials.
kay
· 2 years ago
this means that no more babies will be harmed in the process. I'm not prolife, I'm pro-child. Which are you?
TheCynic
· 2 years ago
I think it is incorrect that "both sides will have they want".
I contend that a good part of the hoolpla over embryonic funding was never about the research but about abortion and the people who wanted the funding are probably disappointed about this breakthrough. It takes away from them a backdoor issue that lent them deniability. Anything that reduces the sanctity of life is a plus for them and the destruction of embyos for research was just a tactic they could support. Potential "cures" was a secondary, even unnecessary, but nice bonus that gave them an excuse to demogogue the issue to an ignorant public.
Cynical? You bet.
Maquis
· 2 years ago
Saw Wolf Blitzer on CNN with this story. His correspondent was about as jazzed as could be, seeming full of the wonder of life itself, and Blitzer did everything but throw a bucket of cold water on the woman, with exagerated "POTENTIAL"s and multiple warnings that viewers should not get their hopes up. The clip they showed ended by saying that no one knows if one will be any more effective than the other, without mentioning that adult stem cells have already been successful in dozens of instances, and embryonic ones have yet to be put to successful use once. Seems the "backlash" is already in progress. How pathetic.
Mr. Gunn
· 2 years ago
No, it won't put an end to anything. Sorry. Let me quote the last line of the actual paper:
"Human iPS cells, however, are not identical to hES cells: DNA microarray analyses detected differences between the two pluripotent stem cell lines. Further studies are essential to determine whether human iPS cells can replace hES in medical applications."
So, in other words, all the ES restrictions have done is make many smart people waste a tremendous amount of resources to generate something of questionable utility.
unclesmrgol
· 2 years ago
The difference may well turn out to be teleremes. That would be the obvious difference, given that the cells came from adults.
And in those places without ES restrictions, all we've seen is falsity and no advances in health therapies when attempts are made using ES. When California tries to award $2.6M to a discredited Korean, that says a lot right there. Paper tiger, Mr. Gunn. Or, rather, a petri tiger, because that seems to be as far as your side's therapies go.
All Comments
Lefties scream that if I'm against federal funding for education, then, in their world , I'm against education. If I'm against the unconstitutional agricultural and farm subsidies than I'm against farming. Right. I'm for ignorance and I'm against eating. What vapid thinking exists on the left.
When you're a hammer, the whole world is a nail. When you're a lefty, the world can only exist by government programs, tax increases,regulations and regulators.
Quirks in the law and also not wanting to call embryos human because of impacts on Roe v Wade.
I always felt that coaxing adult stem cells into becoming pluripotent was the lower technical hurdle. And adult cells from the intended recipient will not require anti-rejection drugs. Hopefully cells from this approach won't exhibit tumorous growth either.
That being said, I'm sure this will be rejected vehemently or flat out ignored. HESC creates a moral justification for abortion. It also recruits people who have loved ones with illnesses into this camp as well. So I don't expect the debate to be over for a long time.
Exactly. Plus, there are all those politicians (I believe Tom Harkin was quite vocal) who claimed that "the debate is over" and that ONLY human embryonic stem cells offered ANY promise of helping cure various diseases. They certainly aren't going to rush to admit that they were wrong.
I don't think Dr. Mengele himself could have phrased it any better than that.
'As news of the success by two different research teams spread by e-mail, scientists seemed almost giddy at the likelihood that their field, which for its entire life has been at the center of so much debate, may suddenly become like other areas of biomedical science: appreciated, ****** eligible for federal funding ******** and wide open for new waves of discovery.'
And to think! They did it without federal funding.
Wanna know what conservatives will absolutely not do right now?
Declare the debate is over and slander all who disagree as paid liars.
Let's teach democrats how to conduct real scientific discourse.
Roe vs Wade was in 1973 while DNA fingerprinting wasn't developed until 1989.
Obviously Roe vs Wade is no longer relevant.
Why should only pregnant women be given the choice to murder?
Only a few years later, here we are, and scientists seem to be making a new breakthrough every week that makes embryo farming for stem cells unnecessary. I definitely didn't think the progress would be so fast.
Irresponsible scientists go along with activists or political hacks for the easy money/funding by exaggerating a crisis. Unfortunately, we have plenty of those too.
As it turns out, true science and morality both point in the same direction, not only due to the recent discoveries announced today, but also due to the fact that the only previous stem-cell therapies that have yielded positive clinical results used adult or umbilical cord-blood stem cells, not embryonic stem cells. Embryonic stem cells are good at growing into babies, but they need guidance from chemicals secreted in the womb--when transplanted outside the womb, without this chemical guidance they become loose cannons, and frequently destructive. This was known last year in scientific circles, but the mass-media lied about it and promoted embryonic stem cells as the "miracle" cure-all for political reasons. There still aren't any cures using embryonic stem cells, but the media won their battle--for a Democrat majority in the Senate, which was the only true goal of their campaign.
The mass media haven't given up with twisting "science" to achieve political ends--Al Gore got a D in Earth Science in college, and a Nobel Peace Prize, and he's trying to convince everyone to pay HIM and his rich cohorts carbon taxes, and send the rest of the world into an energy-poor economic depression, based on a LIE! Most scientists who have studied climate objectively conclude that climate change is due to changes in solar activity and other natural causes, not carbon dioxide, which does have the beneficial effect of increasing plant growth rates and crop yields. The Earth will be greener and more fertile (but not necessarily warmer) if we DON'T limit CO2 emissions, but how many sheeple and Congress-people will follow Al Gore and the mass media into world poverty trying to save ice in Greenland (which was named by the Vikings in medieval times, when it was much warmer than it is now)?
Taxpayers were suckered again by the Left.
As for me, I'm moving out of this State as soon as I retire; I refuse to have blood on my hands by repaying the estimated $8 billion cost of this program which will come due in a few years.
I'm sure that if he considers this method to be moral/ethical, he will advocate funding for it.
The problem will now turn to assuring that cell lines produced this way are not used for cloning a human identical to the donor for immoral purposes. Growing an entire human being just to harvest organs is the ultimate in slavery, and we now have to consider that aspect of ethics.
Larry Niven must be loving this moment.
Each usage of adult stem cells will be done with cells from the host body needing treatment which lowers the rejection risk to almost zero since it comes from the host.
You are not manufacturing stuff to put on a shelf to use like a medicine or whatever.
The embyronic cell lines were not from abortions or their by products, they were originated from artificial insemination fertility treatments, that is why there are so few of them available.
Adult cells have the advantage that they are more easily converted in that they are part of the mature body structure.
Even if you chose to start from an ESC you have to do thousands of chemical translations to get it to the same point ASC products are when they start to be modified from there.
Some adult stem cell therapies already are in field trials.
I contend that a good part of the hoolpla over embryonic funding was never about the research but about abortion and the people who wanted the funding are probably disappointed about this breakthrough. It takes away from them a backdoor issue that lent them deniability. Anything that reduces the sanctity of life is a plus for them and the destruction of embyos for research was just a tactic they could support. Potential "cures" was a secondary, even unnecessary, but nice bonus that gave them an excuse to demogogue the issue to an ignorant public.
Cynical? You bet.
"Human iPS cells, however, are not identical to hES cells: DNA microarray analyses detected differences between the two pluripotent stem cell lines. Further studies are essential to determine whether human iPS cells can replace hES in medical applications."
So, in other words, all the ES restrictions have done is make many smart people waste a tremendous amount of resources to generate something of questionable utility.
And in those places without ES restrictions, all we've seen is falsity and no advances in health therapies when attempts are made using ES. When California tries to award $2.6M to a discredited Korean, that says a lot right there. Paper tiger, Mr. Gunn. Or, rather, a petri tiger, because that seems to be as far as your side's therapies go.