Captain's Quarters Comments - Latest Comments in The End Of hEsc?

Re: The End Of hEsc?

Corsair — Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:10:19 -0000

Research for military advancements(which led to telegraph,computer,internet) directly involved with national defense, I have no problem with. Throwing grants around to every medical study to discover the cure for (insert favorite pc disease) only leads to a welfare state for colleges. Most cures have come about when someone finds that they can make money with a cure(private sector) not just looking for a cure(goverment grant, etc.) They discovered shortly after finding a way to fix polio that there was more money n researching than there is in curing.

Re: The End Of hEsc?

unclesmrgol — Thu, 22 Nov 2007 01:34:53 -0000

The difference may well turn out to be teleremes. That would be the obvious difference, given that the cells came from adults.

And in those places without ES restrictions, all we've seen is falsity and no advances in health therapies when attempts are made using ES. When California tries to award $2.6M to a discredited Korean, that says a lot right there. Paper tiger, Mr. Gunn. Or, rather, a petri tiger, because that seems to be as far as your side's therapies go.

Re: The End Of hEsc?

Lydia — Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:19:21 -0000

Mike M. I completely agree. I felt the same, and immediately thought of Dr. Mengele when I read what Prof. Glenn Reynolds at Instapundit had to say on the subject. According to him science should be free and anyone who opposes whatever scientists might care to do is a theocrat. Dr. Mengele deserved the Nobel prize, I guess. Truly frightening. Tried to post a link, but it didn't work. Scroll down at Instapundit to see for yourself.

Re: The End Of hEsc?

Mr. Gunn — Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:02:29 -0000

No, it won't put an end to anything. Sorry. Let me quote the last line of the actual paper:

"Human iPS cells, however, are not identical to hES cells: DNA microarray analyses detected differences between the two pluripotent stem cell lines. Further studies are essential to determine whether human iPS cells can replace hES in medical applications."

So, in other words, all the ES restrictions have done is make many smart people waste a tremendous amount of resources to generate something of questionable utility.

Re: The End Of hEsc?

Otter — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:41:48 -0000

...You Almost had me with that one.

Re: The End Of hEsc?

Maquis — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:40:21 -0000

Saw Wolf Blitzer on CNN with this story. His correspondent was about as jazzed as could be, seeming full of the wonder of life itself, and Blitzer did everything but throw a bucket of cold water on the woman, with exagerated "POTENTIAL"s and multiple warnings that viewers should not get their hopes up. The clip they showed ended by saying that no one knows if one will be any more effective than the other, without mentioning that adult stem cells have already been successful in dozens of instances, and embryonic ones have yet to be put to successful use once. Seems the "backlash" is already in progress. How pathetic.

Re: The End Of hEsc?

hunter — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:20:17 -0000

And Tom Harkin is a famouns combat pilot and we should listen to him. He even flew Keery into Cambodia, if I recall, so we should listen to them both.

Re: The End Of hEsc?

hunter — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:18:45 -0000

From the telegraph to the computer to the internet, the Federal Government ahs been a backer of research. Jefferson funded expoloration on a large scale. This has served us well and I see no reason for it to stop now.

Re: The End Of hEsc?

unclesmrgol — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:50:47 -0000

Explain your position more fully as to why it is "not their job". I can think of several defense-related justifications for this type of research -- the same type of research that led to us landing on the moon or inventing the internet.

Re: The End Of hEsc?

TheCynic — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:38:08 -0000

I think it is incorrect that "both sides will have they want".

I contend that a good part of the hoolpla over embryonic funding was never about the research but about abortion and the people who wanted the funding are probably disappointed about this breakthrough. It takes away from them a backdoor issue that lent them deniability. Anything that reduces the sanctity of life is a plus for them and the destruction of embyos for research was just a tactic they could support. Potential "cures" was a secondary, even unnecessary, but nice bonus that gave them an excuse to demogogue the issue to an ignorant public.

Cynical? You bet.

Re: The End Of hEsc?

always right — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:13:28 -0000

The point is there ARE responsible scientists quietly, and I am sure, competing with others to achieve this major breakthrough. Without the activitists and actors (Michael J Fox, for example) pulling wools over mos of our eyes.

Irresponsible scientists go along with activists or political hacks for the easy money/funding by exaggerating a crisis. Unfortunately, we have plenty of those too.

Re: The End Of hEsc?

Corsair — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:53:23 -0000

Why should the federal government be using tax dollars for any of this. They shouldn't be involved in funding any research. Not their job.

Re: The End Of hEsc?

kay — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:42:10 -0000

this means that no more babies will be harmed in the process. I'm not prolife, I'm pro-child. Which are you?

Re: The End Of hEsc?

DayTrader — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:15:24 -0000

Actually others have brought up the point but it needs to be clarified.

Each usage of adult stem cells will be done with cells from the host body needing treatment which lowers the rejection risk to almost zero since it comes from the host.

You are not manufacturing stuff to put on a shelf to use like a medicine or whatever.

The embyronic cell lines were not from abortions or their by products, they were originated from artificial insemination fertility treatments, that is why there are so few of them available.

Adult cells have the advantage that they are more easily converted in that they are part of the mature body structure.

Even if you chose to start from an ESC you have to do thousands of chemical translations to get it to the same point ASC products are when they start to be modified from there.

Some adult stem cell therapies already are in field trials.

Re: The End Of hEsc?

BJ — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:11:51 -0000

Sorry, both sides will NOT have what they want: free access to manipulate the human embryo is irrevovably tied to the mindset that such an embryo is not a human being. Another pretext will be found to make it vital that such research be continued. It's not human, so it's OK to experiment on it, and it's surely OK for a woman to "choose" to abort it.

Re: The End Of hEsc?

Otter — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:38:18 -0000

http://www.technovelgy.com/...

Larry Niven must be loving this moment.

Re: The End Of hEsc?

unclesmrgol — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:18:11 -0000

GWB has signed bills funding billions of dollars in stem cell research not involving new embryonic stem cell lines, and has allowed the use of embryonic cell lines existing prior to his prohibition.

I'm sure that if he considers this method to be moral/ethical, he will advocate funding for it.

The problem will now turn to assuring that cell lines produced this way are not used for cloning a human identical to the donor for immoral purposes. Growing an entire human being just to harvest organs is the ultimate in slavery, and we now have to consider that aspect of ethics.

Re: The End Of hEsc?

unclesmrgol — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:05:49 -0000

I'm a Californian who voted against the embryonic stem cell research initiative. Not only have no advances occurred in the embryonic stem cell arena, the money was essentially privatized, with a small board, immune from politics (and therefore oversight by the People), handing out contracts worth billions of dollars to whatever current grant applicant catches their fancy. A prime example was the $2.6M grant to CHA Regenerative Medicine Institute of Los Angeles, which is the American arm of discredited Korean researcher Kwang-Yul Cha. The grant was eventually turned down by the Institute in the wake of a scandal -- it was not withdrawn by California.

As for me, I'm moving out of this State as soon as I retire; I refuse to have blood on my hands by repaying the estimated $8 billion cost of this program which will come due in a few years.

Re: The End Of hEsc?

Mike M. — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:07:53 -0000

I think that is one of the most frightening quotes I've read in quite some time. "Professor" Charo is essentially saying that scientists should be legally permitted to do absolutely anything they want to, in the name of science!

I don't think Dr. Mengele himself could have phrased it any better than that.

Re: The End Of hEsc?

hermie — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:03:36 -0000

What it also boils down to is that abortion providers like Planned Parenthood can't justify trying to make money off of their victims by selling their remains to college research labs, since their 'by products' won't actually be needed.

Re: The End Of hEsc?

Maquis — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:03:22 -0000

I fear most here are right, certain peoples want more cover for deliberate embryo destruction. However, this IS great news, and the blogosphere should be electric, no, nuclear, in it's enthusiasm to share this news! If GWB wants human dignity to be part of his legacy, he can now focus less on standing in front of the embryonic stem cell train, and tout and FUND this new find. The White House should be all over this. We can whine about the MSM, and are right to, but Bush should be first in line to make the world know that we can do this without destroying life.

Re: The End Of hEsc?

hermie — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:00:15 -0000

State governments such as California and Illinois have already committed multimillions of taxpayer dollars into embryonic stem cell research. The state income taxes, property taxes, and other 'contributions' will now go towards a now obsolete and impractical program, which will never produce the kinds of results other non-embryonic programs have shown.

Taxpayers were suckered again by the Left.

Re: The End Of hEsc?

Patrick — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:55:08 -0000

Golly, you mean that crypto-Christo-fascist and world-class moron Chimpy-McBushitler might have been right about human embryonic stem-cell research after all? If this does pan out, I doubt the left will give up on this particular hobby horse without a fight.

Re: The End Of hEsc?

Steven Zell — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:43:27 -0000

One more case where the mass-media jumped on a bandwagon of false hopes to create an appearance of conflict between "science" and morality, in order to portray pro-life Christians as scientifically-ignorant fools, as the media usually do. Remember that horrible misleading ad by Michael J. Fox who claimed that former Senator Jim Talent of Missouri was preventing him from being cured of Parkinson's disease by opposing funding of embryonic stem-cell research, that probably cost Talent re-election, which could have resulted in an evenly split Senate?

As it turns out, true science and morality both point in the same direction, not only due to the recent discoveries announced today, but also due to the fact that the only previous stem-cell therapies that have yielded positive clinical results used adult or umbilical cord-blood stem cells, not embryonic stem cells. Embryonic stem cells are good at growing into babies, but they need guidance from chemicals secreted in the womb--when transplanted outside the womb, without this chemical guidance they become loose cannons, and frequently destructive. This was known last year in scientific circles, but the mass-media lied about it and promoted embryonic stem cells as the "miracle" cure-all for political reasons. There still aren't any cures using embryonic stem cells, but the media won their battle--for a Democrat majority in the Senate, which was the only true goal of their campaign.

The mass media haven't given up with twisting "science" to achieve political ends--Al Gore got a D in Earth Science in college, and a Nobel Peace Prize, and he's trying to convince everyone to pay HIM and his rich cohorts carbon taxes, and send the rest of the world into an energy-poor economic depression, based on a LIE! Most scientists who have studied climate objectively conclude that climate change is due to changes in solar activity and other natural causes, not carbon dioxide, which does have the beneficial effect of increasing plant growth rates and crop yields. The Earth will be greener and more fertile (but not necessarily warmer) if we DON'T limit CO2 emissions, but how many sheeple and Congress-people will follow Al Gore and the mass media into world poverty trying to save ice in Greenland (which was named by the Vikings in medieval times, when it was much warmer than it is now)?

Re: The End Of hEsc?

JohnMcJunkin — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:31:18 -0000

Amen Mr. Markowitz - it's similar to environmentalism, the goal of which is not to "save the planet" but rather to promote socialism and statism. If you fail at the ballot box, you have to find a different angle.