Captain's Quarters Comments - Latest Comments in Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

Re: Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

Neil — Sun, 30 Dec 2007 08:16:26 -0000

This post is almost funny in a sick sort of way. Why is it that professional murderers always want to be treated as moral and intellectual authorities? If laws based on soldiers' wisdom was what sane people wanted, we wouldn't have bothered starting civilian governments in the first place.
Why is it so hard to understand that the voters of this country might want to have a say in what our military will be allowed to do? You know, US, your employers. Not all of us are pathetic enough to base our lives on sick fantasies of eternal martial law. Don't go accusing me of wearing rose-tinited glasses; I've listened to enough conservatives to know how truly awful people can be. Case in point: We have already murdered 2/3 of a million people so that a few Americans can make billions while bringing on a state of permanent warfare to take care of all our inconvenient liberties.
As for treason: conservatives would be wise to shut up about it. If we all took treason seriously, there wouldn't be a Republican politician left alive.
The funniest (and sickest) part of the comments is the attitude of righteousness and superiority espoused by so many here. The only difference between you folks and the "terrorists" is that you actually had a reasonable shot at joining the human race, but chose not to anyway.

Re: Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:18:09 -0000

What I find most interesting is that the self appointed experts out there continue to appear in the press and make erroneous and unqualified statements, yet appear to be unchallenged by the elected officials who choose to quote them without completely vetting their backgrounds. I know, I know, how could the truth possibly matter in this discourse? All of you gents in this blog should turn outwards and address this issue with your district's elected officials. If Mr. Nance is violating agreements not to disclose classified information, then he should be reported for doing so... Clearly, the Senatorial panel and everyone else who's read his article didn't do anything about it... I clearly remember signing a non-disclosure agreement when I went to SERE in 1983, and although the overall classification was low, it was still classified. I also remember the whole SERE experience as a positive and extremely useful course, not one that scarred me or during which I feared for my own well being. As a Naval Aircrewman, I knew that the training I received at SERE would help me tolerate and endure enemy mistreatment, and that I had the Code of Honor as a compass to help me through the situation at hand. Mr. Nance taught the course, but never flew as as an Aircrewman, he provided an outstanding service to the many Sailors and Marines that he trained, but he certainly didn't torture anyone, he provided a simulation of a potential form of torture that an enemy may inflict on us. So, thank You Senior Chief, but stick to what you actually have done, not some overblown personal fantasy.

Re: Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

Math_Mage — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 01:10:45 -0000

Ummm, there's no way that all 37% of Americans that approve of Bush these days are drunk/addicts.
http://www.rasmussenreports...

Anecdotes about the people you know are amusing, but don't add much to the discussion.

Re: Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

BurfordHolly — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:42:58 -0000

Math_Mage, I'll toss this in because you may read it . This is a bit better than LGF, but this has been really sad. I know some people that are still backing Bush, and the one thing they have in common is a family history of alcoholism and addiction. Rush, Beck, W - all untreated addicts. But all I hear here is stupid drunk talk, the sort of thing you usually hear in bars at 1:00 AM. It's the stuff you believe when you're 7, like that if a flag fall down you have to burn it. Then they ge older and believe that it's worth amending the constitution to ban flag burning.

Re: Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

BurfordHolly — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:34:25 -0000

All these "what-if" scenarios about catching someone toilet papering my tree and torturing him in my garage.....not only is this guy equipped with all the shackles and what not, but man can he accessorize.

Speaking of Boy George (and heroin), WS Burroughs probably had the best idea decades ago - you simply addict your prisoners to heroin by putting it in their food and water. You can question them by withholding their smack, and when you turn them loose their usefulness is over because they are addicts.

Re: Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

Math_Mage — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:25:11 -0000

Er, wtf is the relevance of that article?

Re: Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

Math_Mage — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:21:55 -0000

Uh, if the Geneva Conventions applied to the people being held in Gitmo (i.e. they were wearing a uniform and the like) then we'd be far more in the wrong. Again, conflation of POWs with nonuniformed combatants ftl...

More reading material, two two-part essays:
http://www.ejectejecteject....
http://www.ejectejecteject....
http://www.ejectejecteject....
http://www.ejectejecteject....

It's a lot of reading, but well worth the time IMHO (feel free to sue for your time back afterwards, of course). Pay special attention to the passages regarding the breaking of Sanctuaries by the insurgents and the Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma.

One hopes you don't call everyone who disagrees with you an idiot...especially since you only read two of Surber's articles to begin with.

And you know, the reason there haven't been any waterboardings in the past 4 years (and only three total) is because the CIA removed it from their list of permissible interrogation techniques. Don't sneer at the history of taking a few steps down slippery slopes in wartime and climbing back afterwards.

Re: Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

Math_Mage — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:04:25 -0000

Ok, so the Dresden example is not itself a good comparison, but you bring up another reason WWII is not a good comparison to Iraq so that balances out.

Anyway, the main thrust of my argument was certainly not in that paragraph.

Re: Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

BurfordHolly — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:38:56 -0000

Hitler and Mussolini declared war against the US on 11 December 1941 to aid the Japanese after Pearl Harbor, even though Hitler was not obligated by treaty.

Re: Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

Fred not that Fred — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:01:32 -0000

It's real simple.

If Abdul knows the location of a bomb about to go off, or the location of captured American servicemen or civilians...

.... and the only way to get him to tell us is to hook up a DieHard to his little cojones...

Red is positive.

Re: Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

rahul — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 16:10:27 -0000

Water boarding, surf boarding , who cares . They have no qualms about beheading people and stoning women to death and yet we should worry about dunking a terrorist in a controlled atmospherech to extract information which might eventually save countless innocent lives. Duh.

Re: Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

navyman — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:51:31 -0000

On what date and place did the Germans attck us??

Re: Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

BurfordHolly — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:25:30 -0000

Well this guy is prepared !

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...

Re: Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

unclesmrgol — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:16:18 -0000

Carol's parent post is gone again.

Re: Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

muffler — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 10:58:20 -0000

I read your link to Don Surbar. Never read him before. He's an idiot.

Re: Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

muffler — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 10:48:27 -0000

You kill me. What are you an English teacher? You certainly are not a History teacher. Stick to your expertise.

I like the Dresden argument and the "only" three water boardings comment. I fail to see how this idea works on so many levels. I have a feeling we forgot the kidnappings and suspension of Habeas Corpus. Iraq was a war of choice and not defense. The facts stand as they are and we were lied to as a country by our leadership. If they attacked we would have bombed Baghdad to dust. I have no doubt about that. It would have been an all out invasion and the end would have happened already.

The scolding of the US should be expected since for generations we have held ourselves out as the moral authority. We supported the test ban treaty, the Geneva convention, held the Nuremberg trials, upheld human rights and used all that to further our countries standing in the world. Now when to going gets a bit tough we are willing to just throw all that out the window.

You can't fight evil with evil. You have to set the bar so that people can choose the way they want to live. The excuse that it's OK for us to torture since they do worse is one that stopped working in Kindergarten. Just wait until China and the new Russia get ready to engage us... you have no idea how misplaced our priorities are and how badly we have destroyed our goodwill and moral authority in the world.

It's like the Pope coming out of the closet.

Re: Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

BurfordHolly — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 10:42:02 -0000

Add torture and the false confession rate skyrockets. Remember the Salem Witch Trials? They hung a couple dozen "witches." Once torture started, it became factory scale even in a tiny town and the false confession rate was was 100%.

Re: Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

Math_Mage — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 10:08:59 -0000

gj, but since we don't allow torture domestically I don't see why you included that last bit.

Re: Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

BurfordHolly — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 10:04:02 -0000

Interestingly, John Ashcroft pushed for post conviction DNA testing. So the problem of false convictions is bad enough for the DOJ to step in.

The President's DNA Initiative:

http://www.dna.gov/uses/pos...

http://www.innocenceproject...

In this discussion, they put the exoneration rate for rape in the 20-25% range.

http://creativedestruction....

The exoneration rate for murder is pretty hush-hush because well, the government does not cooperate in cases where people have already been executed because the government does not want families to have legal proof someone innocent fried.

However, this is the reason that capital punishment has come to a virtual standstill across the US because the system is clu#sterf#ck.

Re: Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

BurfordHolly — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:46:05 -0000

OK, I'm lost, the example cited was absurd and the follow up was more absurd. I'm supposed to subdue a criminal, hog tie him, and drag him out to garage to torture him?

Is this some sort of metaphor or am I supposed to order shackles from some bondage catalog and be prepared to torture someone in the garage? Because there doesn't seem to be any dividing line between fantasy and reality.

Re: Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

BurfordHolly — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 08:41:30 -0000

They also own big chunks of the media.

The GOP is anxious to sell them our roads, electrical grid, and water systems. They have all our money and want something more stable than oil, so they are want to be out landlords.

Re: Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

BurfordHolly — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 08:39:09 -0000

We haven't bombed Bagdhad like Dresden because Iraq did not attack us. If a nation attacks you, you can bomb them flat (although even the military had qualms about toasting all those civilians and debated whether it made a strategic difference).But you don't bomb a city flat to get a few terrorists. That would be oh what's the word I'm looking for - genocide.

Re: Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

BurfordHolly — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 08:34:46 -0000

Richard Armitage? Robert Novak? Hello? Hello?

Re: Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

BurfordHolly — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 08:31:41 -0000

It was well enough defined for previous convictions for water boarding as recently as Texas in 1983 (sheriff got 10 years). And that is PRECEDENT. There's the law as written and precedent as the courts interpret it.

Unless you buy the "no activist judges" thing. The "constructionist" judges ignore precedent and make it up as they go.

Re: Waterboarding: Two Other Perspectives

BurfordHolly — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 08:26:02 -0000

Cases where the forensic evidence exists and they believe that have a chance of contesting the sentence and the authorities don't refuse to cooperate. That's why capital punishment has been virtually suspended even in conservative states.

http://www.innocenceproject...

And this is for you torture buffs

."..............FALSE CONFESSIONS play a role in nearly 25% of wrongful convictions overturned with DNA. More than 500 jurisdictions now record interrogations (nine states mandate the recording), and legislation to require such recording was introduced in 20 states this year..............."